Project Argonaut, totally new, vintage style DH regulator

[Nemrod]

Will the offset of the Halcyon STA provide enough clearance for the reg?
View attachment 188129

Thanks!

You do not want to use an STA with any twin hose regulator. The distance between the center of the lungs and the center of the diaphragm is critical to good performance. The STA will space the regulator too far from your lungs. The closer the regulator is to the back and centered between the shoulder blades is optimal.

The typical double tanks bent plate that uses an adapter (STA) to accept a single tank is not a very good idea for a double hose regulator and not in my opinion for a single hose regulator either.

The Freedom Plate will work, the VDH mini-plate will work (and is fine with single hose as well), the Oxy soft travel plate (and similar) will work but unfortunately the bent tech plates originally intended for double tanks, not so good.

N

 

[Pao]

Thanks! I was thinking of trying out a DH rig before but was not entirely sure about using a 30+ year old reg and technology. The Kraken got me thinking. Is there a book or web site where I can learn about the peculiarities of using double hose regs?

---------- Post added July 6th, 2014 at 02:18 PM ----------

I found some threads on the Vintage forum. It looks like its much more than using a different regulator....

 

[rhwestfall]

welcome to the dark side....

 

[herman]

The technology is closer to 70 yo. In reality, regulator technology has not changed much since the mid 60s, materials have changed but the basic design is still the same. There are only a few ways a regulator can be made that retain a simple (cost effective) and robust design. The outer design has changed as well as materials but those are more for cosmetic or cost reduction than performance changes, internally they are still pretty much the same as they were 50 years ago.

DH regulators in general do require a slightly different diving technique to get the best out of them. You can dive them with a conventional BC and they will deliver gas reliably but their performance will degrade badly if not worn correctly. This is their major weakness but it is also easily dealt with as long as the diver understands how. IMO, their advantages outweigh this single disadvantage.

There are no really good books that I am aware of that goes into detail on diving a DH reg. "The New Science of Skin and Scuba Diving" has some information but not much. Myself and others have posted a lot on the subject over the years both here and on Vintage Double Hose. Searching for those post and reviewing them would be a good place to start. The absolute best way to learn to dive a double hose is to find someone locally who dives them on a regular basis and learn from them. This approach is also good since they (hopefully) have regs that are well maintained and performing as they should. A regulator that has not been maintained since the 60s might work but it will not perform well. In contrast, a Argonaut can hold it’s own with any modern single hose regulator available. If you are serious about learning to dive a DH, I think Drado (Doc Ed) is in your area and would be a good person to contact.

 

[Pao]

The technology is closer to 70 yo. In reality, regulator technology has not changed much since the mid 60s, materials have changed but the basic design is still the same. There are only a few ways a regulator can be made that retain a simple (cost effective) and robust design. The outer design has changed as well as materials but those are more for cosmetic or cost reduction than performance changes, internally they are still pretty much the same as they were 50 years ago.

DH regulators in general do require a slightly different diving technique to get the best out of them. You can dive them with a conventional BC and they will deliver gas reliably but their performance will degrade badly if not worn correctly. This is their major weakness but it is also easily dealt with as long as the diver understands how. IMO, their advantages outweigh this single disadvantage.

There are no really good books that I am aware of that goes into detail on diving a DH reg. "The New Science of Skin and Scuba Diving" has some information but not much. Myself and others have posted a lot on the subject over the years both here and on Vintage Double Hose. Searching for those post and reviewing them would be a good place to start. The absolute best way to learn to dive a double hose is to find someone locally who dives them on a regular basis and learn from them. This approach is also good since they (hopefully) have regs that are well maintained and performing as they should. A regulator that has not been maintained since the 60s might work but it will not perform well. In contrast, a Argonaut can hold it’s own with any modern single hose regulator available. If you are serious about learning to dive a DH, I think Drado (Doc Ed) is in your area and would be a good person to contact.

Thanks herman! I know Doc Ed and had a few exchanges with him regarding regulator servicing and other DIY stuff. I'll read up a bit and read through the posts as you suggested then I'll PM him once I decide that I really want to take the "plunge".

 

[dmoore19]

I am curious. This will be my first experience with a DH. What I have right now is a Zeagle Stiletto. My intentions are to use it as it is all I have. Will I be totally disappointed?

 

[Nemrod]

I am curious. This will be my first experience with a DH. What I have right now is a Zeagle Stiletto. My intentions are to use it as it is all I have. Will I be totally disappointed?

I am not terribly familiar with that rig since I am a BP/wing sort but yes, I think it will be okay. See, the critical aspect of using a double hose regulator is its position relative to the center of the diver's lungs. Thus keeping the tank as low in the rig as possible when you install the tank/reg into the BC is necessary so that when you are diving the center of the regulator diaphragm would intersect a line drawn between your shoulder blades. The other aspect is keeping the distance between the tank and regulator and your back as small as possible. This is why an STA is a bad idea. You want to keep the regulator as close as possible to the lungs center.

Double hose regulators like the Argonaut have a powerful Venturi effect which once flow is established assist breathing to compensate for this physical distance between the divers lungs and the regulator diaphragm. This Venturi action is much more pronounced than in a single hose and the Argonaut has a VERY powerful Venturi action. It also has a low cracking effort and possibly the lowest exhaust effort of any regulator I have ever used. The WOB should be very good. But to get the best performance you will need to pay attention to it's position, something you never did with a single hose and the modern tech style of wearing the tank high is just not a good idea here.

Now, here is were I go my own way. If you have good horizontal trim then keeping the regulator between the shoulder blades becomes less important but still, the less junk between you and it the better.

Any rig that can position the regulator as shown above is ideal, perfection is not needed, but best results are gotten when attention is paid to proper position when swimming in the water. Good buoyancy and good trim skills and good regulator position equal a happy double hose diver. It really is easy. It is just they no longer teach this stuff and it is different but different is still easy.

N

 

[captain]

I am curious. This will be my first experience with a DH. What I have right now is a Zeagle Stiletto. My intentions are to use it as it is all I have. Will I be totally disappointed?

You may or may not. It depends on how closely to the optimum regulator position the BC allows. The regulator should be between your shoulder blades and as close to your back as possible. Most BC don't allow the tank to be positioned low enough to get it between the shoulder blade, and they tend to float the regulator away from your back. A crotch strap also helps in keeping the regulator from riding up. Double hoses require a bit of acclimation, on first use inhalation will seem harder compared to a single hose. Once the double hose becomes your primary regulator two things happen, you become accustomed to it and you develop more diaphragm strength, yours not the regulators. I haven't dive with a single hose in over 15 years. My main regulator is an Aqua Master with Phoenix first stage and HPR second stage.

 

[dmoore19]

Thanks Nemrod.

My Kraken will be delivered on Wednesday according to the latest Fedex tracking information. I will be in the pool messing with it next weekend and will hopefully get it figured out. I am really excited to try it out! I have a trip coming up in 2 weeks and will take both my single hose and new DH with me.

Thanks again for the information!

---------- Post added July 6th, 2014 at 08:58 AM ----------

The stiletto has 2 tank straps, I should be able to drop the tank down and still keep it secure. At least that is my thought.

You may or may not. It depends on how closely to the optimum regulator position the BC allows. The regulator should be between your shoulder blades and as close to your back as possible. Most BC don't allow the tank to be positioned low enough to get it between the shoulder blade, and they tend to float the regulator away from your back. A crotch strap also helps in keeping the regulator from riding up. Double hoses require a bit of acclimation, on first use inhalation will seem harder compared to a single hose. Once the double hose becomes your primary regulator two things happen, you become accustomed to it and you develop more diaphragm strength, yours not the regulators. I haven't dive with a single hose in over 15 years. My main regulator is an Aqua Master with Phoenix first stage and HPR second stage.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Now that the totally new Argonaut is out, which is a BRAND NEW regulator from the ground up, not reworked or refurbished or modified old regulator, maybe you guys should do a little research and find out which existing BC's would work with the reg.
It's been years since I've used or even closely looked at any jacket style or back inflates, but there are a lot of people who use them (most in fact).
They could use what they have if there was a way to find out just how compatible they are with the new Argonaut.
And if not, then they could think about making changes if they wanted to continue the DH pursuit.

Do you think a BC compatibility chart might be a clever idea?