OP
I don't know. I've selected the Channel or Cook Islands for certain offshore trusts. I might like to visit.
Professional liability when diving with friends
- Thread starter Northeastwrecks
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I don't know. I've selected the Channel or Cook Islands for certain offshore trusts. I might like to visit.
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
and the individual agencies have FAR deeper pockets than their minions. I am sure that the lack of rescues will come up sooner or later in a law suit... too bad too.
IF I organize the dive... you are gonna sign something somewhere, UNLESS you are a dive professional, and then I try to get you on the waiver.
IF you sign, then my insurance covers you... if you don't then they might not. Then I might be fully liable.
The most common dive accident (according to NAUI) is an ear barotrauma. I always ask students if they can clear on land. Go figure....
NOW, if I don't organize the dive, but am truly along for the ride, I let the organiser (boat, or whatever) ask for the signature. I sign on as a NitrOx diver and that's about it. I don't offer solutions, I don't fix gear, and I don't offer to "help out" in any way. I don't even offer to buddy with anyone, and try to slip off of the boat without a buddy... if possible. Then I can do my own thing underwater and there is no problem. BTW, if I see a potential injury in the making, I point it out to THEIR dive master. Only if it doesn't get corrected will I step in (I just can't stand for ANYONE to get injured) and point out the problem publicly.
BTW, as a dive professional I may incur a lot more liability, but I also get a lot of lattitude as well. I also get to claim my gear/maintenance and additional training off of my taxes. I get to claim the whole cost of the dive too when I am a leader.
Someone has asked for a copy of liability waiver, and I will post it here as an attachment when I get back from church tonight.
IF I organize the dive... you are gonna sign something somewhere, UNLESS you are a dive professional, and then I try to get you on the waiver.
IF you sign, then my insurance covers you... if you don't then they might not. Then I might be fully liable.
The most common dive accident (according to NAUI) is an ear barotrauma. I always ask students if they can clear on land. Go figure....
NOW, if I don't organize the dive, but am truly along for the ride, I let the organiser (boat, or whatever) ask for the signature. I sign on as a NitrOx diver and that's about it. I don't offer solutions, I don't fix gear, and I don't offer to "help out" in any way. I don't even offer to buddy with anyone, and try to slip off of the boat without a buddy... if possible. Then I can do my own thing underwater and there is no problem. BTW, if I see a potential injury in the making, I point it out to THEIR dive master. Only if it doesn't get corrected will I step in (I just can't stand for ANYONE to get injured) and point out the problem publicly.
BTW, as a dive professional I may incur a lot more liability, but I also get a lot of lattitude as well. I also get to claim my gear/maintenance and additional training off of my taxes. I get to claim the whole cost of the dive too when I am a leader.
Someone has asked for a copy of liability waiver, and I will post it here as an attachment when I get back from church tonight.
OP
Thanks, NetDoc. I would also appreciate a copy.
I agree that it is a real shame that we need to think like this. I wish that it weren't so. However, I've seen the results of frivolous lawsuits. Even if you win, its just not worth the sleepless nights and ulcers.
The hard part is striking a balance. I enjoy helping out and I truly love your suggestion of expensing my diving trips. I don't enjoy being a deep pocket because I've got insurance.
Thanks for the comments, everyone. If anyone would like to add something, I'd love to hear it.
I agree that it is a real shame that we need to think like this. I wish that it weren't so. However, I've seen the results of frivolous lawsuits. Even if you win, its just not worth the sleepless nights and ulcers.
The hard part is striking a balance. I enjoy helping out and I truly love your suggestion of expensing my diving trips. I don't enjoy being a deep pocket because I've got insurance.
Thanks for the comments, everyone. If anyone would like to add something, I'd love to hear it.
The tricky part i see is when you teach a student to dive and then they become your friend. Now you go diving together occationaly as just buddies.
It could be said that the student/friend was diving with you as an instructor/DM
I don't agree with Spectre. I think if i go diving with someone and something happens to my dive buddy, if the family decides to sue at all the n they will sue you, and anybody else they can. It will be up to you to remove yourself from the lawsuit, via releases or what ever.
It is a tricky position to be in, we certainly don't want to ask for a release form everybody we go diving with do we.
It could be said that the student/friend was diving with you as an instructor/DM
I don't agree with Spectre. I think if i go diving with someone and something happens to my dive buddy, if the family decides to sue at all the n they will sue you, and anybody else they can. It will be up to you to remove yourself from the lawsuit, via releases or what ever.
It is a tricky position to be in, we certainly don't want to ask for a release form everybody we go diving with do we.
as far as I am aware a release does not stop you getting sued. A friend of mine is a lawyer and always laughs when asked to sign them.
What is does do in the agency's eyes is show you are following the correct procedure and they will back you. I get the feeling that they look for where you don't follow the standards and then drop you like a hot potatoe.....
After an incident last weekend which could have turned out much differently I have decided to bite the bullet and buy the PADI Japan professional indemnity insurance - and I thought this was going to be a cheap month.....
What is does do in the agency's eyes is show you are following the correct procedure and they will back you. I get the feeling that they look for where you don't follow the standards and then drop you like a hot potatoe.....
After an incident last weekend which could have turned out much differently I have decided to bite the bullet and buy the PADI Japan professional indemnity insurance - and I thought this was going to be a cheap month.....
OP
I would agree with that statement. Releases will not shield you from liability for negligence.
What they will do is help establish that the injured party was aware of the risk that they were running and that the fact that an injury happened is not necessarily negligence.
Of course, if the insurance carrier requires releases, then you ignore that requirement at your own peril.
I hope that no one was hurt in your incident.
Spectre
Contributor
Seriously? So if you and a couple friends decide to charter a boat, and you happen to make the call to secure the boat, you have your buddies sign a waiver?
British Columbia, Canada is talking about a new law eliminating all liability releases from outdoor sports activities.
This has outdoor tour opperators very worried. they say that they will not be able to get liability insurance without the releases or the insurance will be cost prohibative.
I am sure this same law will be applied to scub instruction, tours, etc.
This has outdoor tour opperators very worried. they say that they will not be able to get liability insurance without the releases or the insurance will be cost prohibative.
I am sure this same law will be applied to scub instruction, tours, etc.
is that if another person comes to rely on you to do certain things (or not do them, as the case may be) because of your professional expertise, then they may legally be able to hold you to a higher standard irrespective of whether you were paid for your leadership.
To that end, I never show a c-card higher than AOW or nitrox when travelling for recreational diving. By my reasoning, if no one knows I'm an instructor, then they can't reasonably expect a higher duty of care. Hope I never test that theory.
To that end, I never show a c-card higher than AOW or nitrox when travelling for recreational diving. By my reasoning, if no one knows I'm an instructor, then they can't reasonably expect a higher duty of care. Hope I never test that theory.
it was not really much of an incident.
There were three of us on a dive - an instructor, me and an aow. We lost the instructor and then the aow had a bit of a problem with her fin strap. The depth did not help and narcosis had probably (OK she was narced out of her brain!). The instructor swam on oblivoius (looking for an illusive wreck) and we lost him. I sorted out the problem and was about to start a small search after ascending a bit when the instructor reappeared.
The bit that got me thinking about liability insurance was when I talked to the instructor afterwards he said he was not worried because she was with me and I was an AI. Well I am sorry this was a pleasure dive for all and not training so it comes into this fine line discussed here.
I think better safe than sued into the poor house so off to PADI I will go (no other insurance is allowed by them here if you are PADI diving.....)
Jonathan
There were three of us on a dive - an instructor, me and an aow. We lost the instructor and then the aow had a bit of a problem with her fin strap. The depth did not help and narcosis had probably (OK she was narced out of her brain!). The instructor swam on oblivoius (looking for an illusive wreck) and we lost him. I sorted out the problem and was about to start a small search after ascending a bit when the instructor reappeared.
The bit that got me thinking about liability insurance was when I talked to the instructor afterwards he said he was not worried because she was with me and I was an AI. Well I am sorry this was a pleasure dive for all and not training so it comes into this fine line discussed here.
I think better safe than sued into the poor house so off to PADI I will go (no other insurance is allowed by them here if you are PADI diving.....)
Jonathan
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