Problems with Kiteboarders?

[kiteboarder]

In response to the last two posts:
1. I was a snowboarder in the 90s when it was unpopular. Now, it rules the snowspoarts industry, at least from a marketing perspective. In short, kiteboarding will grow to be far more popular than any other windsport. Much like major resorts, including Aspen, that succumbed to the power of the skateboard/snowboard dollar, eventually all destinations will see this as a major source of revenue. Unfortunately, economics usually trumps safety- regardless of venue. My point, the "new kid on the block" argument will be thrown out the window if there are enough "new kids."

Concerning the riduculous argument that divers shouldn't use markers because there has been 1 man unfortunate enough to have his float caught in a prop; safety sytems are not infallible! I am sure there have been those trapped in cars by seatbelts, however they save more lives than they cost (utilitarianism). I am not nearly as skilled a diver as many of you, but 5 bucks says I can post a thread that shows more lives saved by markers and sausages than are lost by freak accidents!

Lastly, the rules for kiteboarding are not more conducive in Cozumel- they are ubiquitous. My point was that divers in Cozumel wouldn't dare surface without a marker because they do not rely solely on laws or judgement to protect them. In my estimation, they presume redundancy, when it comes to safety, is good practice. I gather that the real problem here is that, "we didn't have to do it before, so why now." My answer, Bob Dylan said it best, "The times they are a changin."

 

[WarmWaterDiver]

In response to the last two posts:
1. I was a snowboarder in the 90s when it was unpopular. Now, it rules the snowspoarts industry, at least from a marketing perspective. In short, kiteboarding will grow to be far more popular than any other windsport. Much like major resorts, including Aspen, that succumbed to the power of the skateboard/snowboard dollar, eventually all destinations will see this as a major source of revenue. Unfortunately, economics usually trumps safety- regardless of venue. My point, the "new kid on the block" argument will be thrown out the window if there are enough "new kids."

Concerning the riduculous argument that divers shouldn't use markers because there has been 1 man unfortunate enough to have his float caught in a prop; safety sytems are not infallible! I am sure there have been those trapped in cars by seatbelts, however they save more lives than they cost (utilitarianism). I am not nearly as skilled a diver as many of you, but 5 bucks says I can post a thread that shows more lives saved by markers and sausages than are lost by freak accidents!

Lastly, the rules for kiteboarding are not more conducive in Cozumel- they are ubiquitous. My point was that divers in Cozumel wouldn't dare surface without a marker because they do not rely solely on laws or judgement to protect them. In my estimation, they presume redundancy, when it comes to safety, is good practice. I gather that the real problem here is that, "we didn't have to do it before, so why now." My answer, Bob Dylan said it best, "The times they are a changin."

If the rues were ubiqitous, there wouldn't be a difference between the Bonaire Marine Park regulations and any other location, by the definition of ubiquitous.

I don't know how many dive trips you've taken to Cozumel, but on ours the only folks using SMB's were the dive guides. Our service provider was Scuba Du, highly noted for their attention to safety.

I am not sure there has been one and only one incident of a dive float getting entangled with a boat prop, I'll trust you can post something to substantiate your assertion for us to learn from.

Yes, times are a-changin', as noted our next dive trip is to Curacao, not Bonaire (see my first post on this thread. Hopefully the Bonairean economy can adapt to such changes, I find the locals we've interacted with there friendly and courteous.

 

[kiteboarder]

First, why is it en vogue to "quote" an entire post on this message board? Quote specific sentences if you want to make a point.

Anyhow, kiteboard rules are ubiquitous. Site/ beach rules are not. There are beaches requiring streamers, some with time schedules for use, number of riders... The rules I was referring to include: always use a leash, dont launch or land without certain buffers, starboard tack has right of way...

As you can tell I am a novice diver and have only been to Cozumel for a week. But, if your dive operation let 30 people pile into water heavy laden with boat traffic and didnt require markers, they were not paying that much attention to your safety. I'll bet, the number of divers being hit by boats in Cozumel far exceeds the number of those with DCS. However, it would appear, many on this board fear problems with a low incidence (DCS and Kiteboarders), while ignoring real risks like boat traffic, currents, hypothermia... But before anyone responds, I am just speculating and have no desire to research the numbers.

Lastly, I was not making any "assertion" that there has only been one float caught in a prop. What I was doing, was poking fun at thinking that a kiter could manage to cause the rapid asscent of even an average size diver with a 60ft column of viscous fluid above him. Furthermore, poking fun at not using an established means of safety because there have been a few freak accidents.

Years ago, I would go out from our port with my oldest brother who was a commercial spearfisher. I would watch his bubbles and try to keep the boat near. One afternoon, a freak Fl thunderstorm came up and caused 5 to 6 ft of chop. Neither myself nor the other guy on the boat could find my brother. Had he had an inflatable marker, things may have been different. Ultimately, we did find him and everything was o.k. The lesson, markers and floats save more lives than they cost.

 

[Peter_C]

I don't know how many dive trips you've taken to Cozumel, but on ours the only folks using SMB's were the dive guides.

I like to bring and USE my own SMB. Really it makes it easier to hang on deco stops so I can stare at the pretty reef below My bouyency control is fine FWIW. Practicing releasing an SMB from depth is a good thing. Try it sometime.

I am not sure there has been one and only one incident of a dive float getting entangled with a boat prop, I'll trust you can post something to substantiate your assertion for us to learn from.

Well if mine got entangled in a boat prop, I would simply let go, or it would be yanked out of my "hand", since it is never attached when deployed.

Informing the public is how we come to an understanding of each others sports. I mean doing it in a nice way. Kiteboarders are people, like your well behaved kids etc. Yeah there is always the punk, but I have met the punk diver too. Trying to get them banned is not going to get anything solved. Instead we have to explain what our SMB's are for, and that they need to maintain a safe distance from them. I bet after a nice chat, they would be very understanding and respectful. Your attitude is everything when trying to explain something. Come at them with attitude, expect it back. We have to inform other boaters of unwritten rules quite often, and when explained, they have so far been respectful.

Since we have to co-exist, it is our job to protect ourselves. Kinda like having headlights, brake lights and turn signals on a car to let others know what our intentions are, and where we are going.

If you are not comfortable diving in a spot with overhead traffic, find somewhere else to dive. I see no problems co-existing. Plus kiteboarders are a kick to watch

 

[kiteboarder]

Right on Peter! And, as a diver, I will do my best to watch out for kiters that may not understand what is going on with other divers. I appreciate your support because I really do think there should not even be an issue with the coexistence of these two sports at the same beach. And now I must work on the windsurfers...! Might be an even tougher lot to crack than ya'll!

 

[WarmWaterDiver]

First, why is it en vogue to "quote" an entire post on this message board? Quote specific sentences if you want to make a point.

Anyhow, kiteboard rules are ubiquitous. Site/ beach rules are not. There are beaches requiring streamers, some with time schedules for use, number of riders... The rules I was referring to include: always use a leash, dont launch or land without certain buffers, starboard tack has right of way...

As you can tell I am a novice diver and have only been to Cozumel for a week. But, if your dive operation let 30 people pile into water heavy laden with boat traffic and didnt require markers, they were not paying that much attention to your safety. I'll bet, the number of divers being hit by boats in Cozumel far exceeds the number of those with DCS. However, it would appear, many on this board fear problems with a low incidence (DCS and Kiteboarders), while ignoring real risks like boat traffic, currents, hypothermia... But before anyone responds, I am just speculating and have no desire to research the numbers.

Lastly, I was not making any "assertion" that there has only been one float caught in a prop. What I was doing, was poking fun at thinking that a kiter could manage to cause the rapid asscent of even an average size diver with a 60ft column of viscous fluid above him. Furthermore, poking fun at not using an established means of safety because there have been a few freak accidents.

Years ago, I would go out from our port with my oldest brother who was a commercial spearfisher. I would watch his bubbles and try to keep the boat near. One afternoon, a freak Fl thunderstorm came up and caused 5 to 6 ft of chop. Neither myself nor the other guy on the boat could find my brother. Had he had an inflatable marker, things may have been different. Ultimately, we did find him and everything was o.k. The lesson, markers and floats save more lives than they cost.

First, copying the post shows clearly who the next post is addressed to, and by copying the entire post, rather than snippets, taking things out of context and distorting them in the process is eliminated. I had thought the logic was so transparent as to be ubiquitous, but one exception as always renders any theory invalid.

Your comment on interference between a kiteboarder and a diver at 60 feet is in a completely different context than the rest of the discussion, which is clearly focused on the problem with kiteboarders being in the shallows. Everyone else has clearly indicated that if the kiteboarders are doing their thing in the deeper water, it's not a problem. I was simply keeping focus on the title you chose for your thread but it really looks like you've chosen to take a different direction. You are the one who has put this in the contet of 'ridiculous' by putting the diver at 60 feet depth. Every responsible diver understands the absolute change in pressure exerted is the highest in the shallowest depths, so the risk for lung overexpansion etc. are highest if one quickly ascends in the shallows. And if I'm not mistaken, you mentioned one of the risks associated with kiteboarding is the power - to catch 20' of air or so - but then you dismiss this later - not sure why.

Our Cozumel experience was the dive guides inflated SMB's during the ascent phase of the dive starting around 30 to 20 fsw depth, but did not have themselves nor every other diver on the boat towing dive flag markers the entire dive. Again, in the deeper waters, when the difference in depth between the diver and the surface craft, this is not a problem, borne out statistically. The amputations I know of were actually from snokelers who strayed too far from shore and got out over the deeper water in Cozumel, and you would have to agree an snorkeler's entire body is considerably larger than any SMb. But, I would like to hear of your Cozumel trip - which operator did you use, and the dive flag marker you personally used on your trip there on every dive. It would be interesting on how the drift diving and boat traffic there has adapted to having a flotilla of dive flag markers present.

Third, your comments about outnumbering rather than concern about adhering to the rules doesn't really fit the context of educating each other about the respective sports. But, my point is we baby boomers wield considerable strength in terms of how we vote with our wallets. I am not keen on returning to Bonaire until some of these things are addressed, that's my personal choice, and we spent around $250 to $300 a day during our Bonaire trip, contributing to the local economy through costs for lodging, vehicle rental, food, and scuba diving. But maybe I have some new insight on why the Bonaire economic model has found cruise ship traffic necessary; can you educate me on how much the average kiteboarder spends per day on Bonaire?

While Curacao also has crime (no place is immune) many of the shore diving sites have nominal admittance fees, with someone in sight of the vehicles. My wallet with its votes are going to Curacao in March, and we'll see what the future brings.

You can see my prior post reference to rule enforcement of rules outside the marine park scuba rules being a challenge on Bonaire. However, Liz at GRI has posted there is a 'beach patrol' being organized to address such issues, and one of my suggestions would be to mount web cams at various locations to help safety and security for all. Would you accept a system where each kiteboarder wears a number (say their BMP permit number) so the rule-breakers could easily be identified and dealt with? Bonaire has U/W web cams, adding shore based ones with recording functions for the beach patrol shouldn't be a big hurdle if the effort actualy comes to pass. This should also cut down significantly on issues with unattended vehicles on Bonaire, from other tourists, or locals, or essentially - everyone, and also be able to assist folks who lock themselves out of their vehicles and other miscellaneous issues. Just plain improvement in safety and security for everyone!

I for one am keenly interested in any facts you have on dive flags being entangled in boat props. If you check, I referred to an incident where someone's fishing line from a fishing boat got entangled with a diver's line. A 'search' on this board can turn up the discussion on this incident.

 

[jaybombs25]

ok well so far I've just read a bunch of legal stuff and laws and such.... boring to me to say the least....anyway I come from an island where kiteboarding is just recently being picked up, I see them from my house everyday... before it used to be windsurfers down there not so much anymore....anyway the two prime places on the island are not at all used for diving so there is no bad blood there, however from watching kiteboarders VERY frequently i find them to be QUITE selfish and want to hog the entire beach by staying close to shore and being a major hazard to anybody in the water... but to answer your question I have no first hand experience with kiteboarders while diving but while swimming they are NUTSS.. might just be that no one really enforces the laws on that beach...I'm looking forward to see how they cope once the new hotel is opened up

 

[WarmWaterDiver]

When we visited Bora Bora, there were zero conflicts between kiteboarders and scuba and snorkelers. All three of these activities were available there - we could see the kiteboarders pretty clearly from the Sofitel Motu.

So, obviously, a spot where everyone pays attention to the rules makes for a situation that works for everyone. Tourism is a very important part of the Bora Bora economy. But, the flip side is that enforcement of the rules is required to make everyone pay attention to the rules, and for some, they just can't accept that. Herman pointed out there was a reason the kiteboarders were banned from Lac Bay on Bonaire.

I grew up in an area well known for both windsurfing and sail boats, and everything worked fine there.

I really want to hear more about the OP's Cozumel dive experience. I'm having trouble mentally picturing the procedures and taskloading for a group all using dive floats while drift diving in Cozumel and going through swim-throughs. So far, only cartoon images appear in my imagination of such an event, so I'd really like to hear how it was actually performed from someone who's been there and evidently done that, based on his comments that a dive op that wouldn't do that isn't very concerned about dive customer safety.

 

[Bosun]

SMB or not, after watching the Kiteboarders at Atlantis last month, I would not feel safe diving anywhere near them. IMHO the two sports are incompatible amd should be seperated. Kiteboarding and Windsurfing did not appear to work in Lac Bay

 

[tvictory]

The entire economy of Bonaire is based on scuba tourism. Most kiteboarders are young males who can't afford to dive a lot, except maybe at places like Bonaire where they can do all shore dives. If kiteboarding starts driving away divers, you can bet that it will be banned immediately. Or, maybe they could increase the Marine Park fee for divers wishing to dive in waters that are kiteboard-free.