Primary donation

[DCBC]

...By the time you arrive at the surface, your "help" will be unnecessary, as they will have embolized and will already be dead.

Bob, I believe it is you who is making the assumptions here. I'm not saying that what you describe is not possible, but from my experience is unlikely. To answer your question however, yes I have had quite a bit of experience with panicked divers.

...YOU are in a far more better position, having had a breath much more recently than the diver in Scenario #1, to initiate a CESA that will get you to safety without the risk of panic.

Again I find your assessment improbable, as I cannot imagine how well the average diver can do an actual CESA successfully from depth; especially when they have another diver in-tow, physically attached to them by their regulator. I don't know how many CESAs you have personally done in open-water, but I've done quite a few as part of my Navy training. I would not want to be tethered to another diver while doing it.

Bottom line is that the real enemy here is panic ... and the scenario that best reduces the risk of EITHER diver going into panic is the one that has the best chance for a happy ending ...

I agree. I just disagree on your solution.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

My point is that regulators fail; see Lamont's post #73 as an example.

I think your point throughout this whole discussion has been more along the lines of people should be competent in the skill of buddy breathing ... which I agree.

However, in the advent that they do not and you only have one working reg to share, you are pretty much faced with the same decisions no matter what configuration you're using. The differences are less with who "owns" the reg than with who wins the battle for it.

I posit that the chances for a successful outcome are far higher in a situation where the donor is in control of those choices. In other words, if it comes down to the "worst-case" decision of having to make a CESA, the donor is the one who's in the best position to do so successfully ... having more recently taken their last breath and having arrived at this situation not by surprise, but by choice.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bob, I believe it is you who is making the assumptions here. I'm not saying that what you describe is not possible, but from my experience is unlikely. To answer your question however, yes I have had quite a bit of experience with panicked divers.

Well, first off, we are ALL making assumptions ... because every single situation is going to depend on circumstances. And a big factor in those circumstances is going to be the individuals involved and how they react. It is impossible to discuss this situation without making assumptions. So let's just clear that up.

My assumptions are based on my experiences ... as are yours. You come at this from the perspective of a Navy diver and a commercial diver. I come at it from the perspective of a recreational diver and a recreational dive instructor.

Again I find your assessment improbable, as I cannot imagine how well the average diver can do an actual CESA successfully from depth; especially when they have another diver in-tow, physically attached to them by their regulator. I don't know how many CESAs you have personally done in open-water, but I've done quite a few as part of my Navy training.

The average diver will not be able to do ANY skill successfully unless they practice it regularly ... CESA or otherwise. Having another diver in tow can be a hindrence, a help, or a complete non-issue ... depending on the reactions of that other diver. And even if it is someone you are intimately familiar with, there is no way to know ... for sure ... what those reactions will be until it happens. You can only prepare for what you believe to be their likely responses. This is the reason why regular practice of your own skills are so important.

I would not want to be tethered to another diver while doing it.

We all have to make our own choices.

I agree. I just disagree on your solution.

... which is what makes these conversations thought-provoking ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DCBC]

I think your point throughout this whole discussion has been more along the lines of people should be competent in the skill of buddy breathing ... which I agree.

Yes, this makes the most sense and can't imagine why PADI would prohibit teaching it; that's just insane.

However, in the advent that they do not and you only have one working reg to share, you are pretty much faced with the same decisions no matter what configuration you're using. The differences are less with who "owns" the reg than with who wins the battle for it.

I look at this from a training perspective. If I'm a PADI Instructor and unable to teach buddy breathing, the process would be to share-air, if negative immediate CESA. This is what they would practice; this is what they would know. Obviously if it's a free-for-all you have a battle and all bets are off, but if they follow their training, the OOA diver upon discovery of a dysfunctional regulator would CESA.

Personally, if BB wasn't an option in an OOA emergency, I'd do what I have done in the past, remove my BC, give him the tank and do a free ascent. I can't advocate this as a course of action for everyone however.

I posit that the chances for a successful outcome are far higher in a situation where the donor is in control of those choices. In other words, if it comes down to the "worst-case" decision of having to make a CESA, the donor is the one who's in the best position to do so successfully ... having more recently taken their last breath and having arrived at this situation not by surprise, but by choice.

The donor has just given away his primary. He has no gas and is at the disadvantage. He is encumbered. Even if he wins after the struggle (which is questionable) the other diver will not be in a good position to CESA. Why invite the struggle in the first-place? Fall-back on the training. Share air, CESA. If this is the case, you have no struggle and the donor (on his primary) follows the CESA to the surface. One diver is reasonably guaranteed to live without a struggle. The rescuer is there to assist.

 

[Gombessa]

Why invite the struggle in the first-place? Fall-back on the training. Share air, CESA. If this is the case, you have no struggle and the donor (on his primary) follows the CESA to the surface. One diver is reasonably guaranteed to live without a struggle. The rescuer is there to assist.

This advice holds for either situation, it doesn't seem to demonstrate the merits of one over the other.

 

[DCBC]

This advice holds for either situation, it doesn't seem to demonstrate the merits of one over the other.

If the donor loses the struggle to regain his Primary, he is the one without air and tethered to the OOA Diver. This is not the case if the donor retains the Primary.

 

[LiteHedded]

*edit* nevermind

 

[Gombessa]

If the donor loses the struggle to regain his Primary, he is the one without air and tethered to the OOA Diver. This is not the case if the donor retains the Primary.

Why invite the struggle in the first-place? Fall-back on the training. Share air, CESA.

You're either struggling, or sharing air and CESAing. Which is which doesn't depend on who has the reg first, it's a matter of mutual training.

 

[DCBC]

You're either struggling, or sharing air and CESAing. Which is which doesn't depend on who has the reg first, it's a matter of mutual training.

I guess either I'm either having a problem with communication, your failing to understand, or you are just rejecting what I'm saying; which is ok. This is something that you have to come to accept one way or the other. Hopefully whatever choice you make will work for you in an emergency.

 

[Gombessa]

I hopped into this thread late, could easily be the second option. I just don't see how, if the solution is "share air and CESA", primary donation leads to any struggle that backup-donate avoids.