Primary donate in UK ice-cold water

[PfcAJ]

Just use a necklace for your octo and hang it around your neck, problem solved. They even come in octo yellow. Highland Silicone Regulator Necklace — XS Scuba - Everything For The Perfect Dive
This is what I use.

Those things are trash.

 

[BoltSnap]

Like all of the little do-dads SP has added to the piston to help cold performance over the past 25/30 years?

SP always enhances its regulator product line in every way possible. It is almost always incremental changes per technology/material advances and user feedback. NEVER had issues with SP's piston regulators even when diving them in the winter in New England ocean and lakes. I have many friends who dive them to technical diving depths in the great lakes and other icy cold waters without any issues. Typically issues happen with second stages in icy cold waters not first stages.

 

[DiveLikeAMuppet]

Do you honest think the majority of divers dive as a team? Not in the places I dive and that is probably universal as well. Outside of GUE and some technical diving circles, team diving is just not a thing.

A lot of the divers who are good in a team are insufferable pricks on the surface… and some of the nicest people are a danger to themselves and others underwater.

So same ocean team is frequently the way to go

 

[lexvil]

SP always enhances its regulator product line in every way possible. It is almost always incremental changes per technology/material advances and user feedback. NEVER had issues with SP's piston regulators even when diving them in the winter in New England ocean and lakes. I have many friends who dive them to technical diving depths in the great lakes and other icy cold waters without any issues. Typically issues happen with second stages in icy cold waters not first stages.

Interesting that they went to the trouble for a never happens situation.

 

[Seaweed Doc]

I have had a secondary uncontrollably free flow under water exactly once. The situation was different; filling a lift bag at 85 feet in a lake, I presume because of the cold water at depth. It can happen. (And I'll admit user error here, for safety, I should have had a separate cylinder and reg set to fill the bag given the cold water at depth. Even so, one quick push of the purge button was all it took to start the flow.)

If I'm understanding the OP correctly, the presumption is that the secondary might free flow uncontrollably on "first breath" or perhaps if the user clears it using the purge button. But it doesn't have to be free flow; any failure where you're swapping a known working second stage for one that has not been in continuous use is the same notion. So the question then becomes who gets the potentially free-flowing or otherwise failing reg, the victim or hero? I think the OP assumes it's better for the hero to not be distracted dealing with a free flow. It's the whole "don't be the second victim" concept. On the other hand, you could argue that the victim is panicked and the hero can manage better than the victim. I'll be honest, which I'd rather do would depend on who my buddy was, my child or the random stranger on the dive boat? (Of course this presumes I know who I'm diving with and how much I love them....)

Both techniques work presuming the user does it correctly. The "what ifs" around secondaries not being properly stowed or users taking two much time to donate could apply with either technique. I suspect we just don't see it as much of a problem with primary donate because folks doing primary donate have usually had a lot more training and experience than Joe Tourist-Diver. I'm aware of one instructor who got hung up in his long hose primary when donating it to a panicked student; the primary donate community said well, he screwed it up. OK, fair enough. But the point is it can be screwed up either way. And if an instructor (experienced) can mess up primary donate so can a newby.

The advice I always give students is to know exactly what donate technique their buddy will use in an OOA emergency. If it's a randomly assigned buddy, ask while doing the buddy check. Know before you dive.

 

[Divin'Papaw]

The advice I always give students is to know exactly what donate technique their buddy will use in an OOA emergency. If it's a randomly assigned buddy, ask while doing the buddy check. Know before you dive.

Another option is to always have your own alternate air source. That is my preference.

In terms of donating, I have had a buddy go out of air twice. Both times they came aggressively for my primary. No signaling, just pouncing. I'd much rather be ready to give them my reg on a long hose knowing that I have a perfectly functioning 2nd under my chin.

Another benefit of primary donate, is I regularly test my AAS. On many a dive I spend half the time on my long hose primary and half on my AAS on a necklace. That helps both to ensure even wear on the 2nd stages (they are both identical) and allows me to confirm both 2nds are working well.

 

[Jacob BV]

It's an interested point I hadn't considered before.

On the BSAC side there is official recognition of Primary donate now. As written most courses have you do them as secondary take - their logic is most your buddies will be used to that as it's what is trained initially. As twinset/ADP/mixed gas courses are being re-written it might make explicit mention that it can be taught/assessed in PD. Now it might be the case in many BSAC clubs this hasn't filtered down and there still might be a resistant attitude to PD in a club but that's not the official guidance.

Regarding the extra chance of free flow. Yes if you take a working reg out your mouth, turn it upside down flick it down even a well tuned reg might begin to free flow, but this is not due to the cold and stops as soon as it is in someones mouth. I've never had this sort of free flow when doing PD, you pass it deliberately, so a) it's unlikely to happen and b) it's going to stop when it goes in someones mouth. I have seen this type of freee flow in secondary donate, if the reg is facing up in stowage and you jirk it down it can start this type of free flow but again it stops quickly. Other types of free flow, like ill-tunes regs, or the cold would affect both methods equally and are not a problem with the method in my opinion.

 

[L2m]

that can be taught so people can use PD as well, but the consistency in training is secondary take.

I've never been sure how the brief removal and replacement of a working secondary will increase the risk of freezing beyond it doing it in use. My understanding is the gas expansion is the cooling element, so actually breathing it would be the trigger to cause a second to free flow, so the risk is to the person breathing the "new" reg, so the buddy on secondary take, and the donor on primary donate. A first stage free flow is by extra gas through it expanding, so it doesn't matter who's on which reg, its the firs stage gas flow that will cause it. If someone has a better explanation I'd love to hear it. On balance, a concerned diver heading to a buddy for a gas share probably has less reserve to cope with a free flowing regulator in my opinion than someone scooping their necklaced secondary and being able to back off a distance on a long hose.

Thanks for sharing the explanation - I think this is very detailed. I did hear of people reporting that they were careful before a real ice diving - but perhaps diving in mainland UK wouldn't be that challenging.

 

[L2m]

Just use a necklace for your octo and hang it around your neck, problem solved.

How do you do this for your secondary octo, as it will be on your chest area - somewhere well below your chin and your primary?

I was thinking of attaching the octo to the chest attachment point with a panic hook like what they use in sidemount long hose, so a bolt snap + cable tie + a small o-ring. Whoever in need of it could grab and strip it from the donor's chest and replacement of these would be minimal unless your buddy runs out of their gas every dive.

 

[L2m]

It doesn’t matter which configuration is theoretically “better” if the other people in your group have no training or familiarity with it.

You are absolutely correct. I believe the argument over primary/secondary donate here is rather a principle over training - is a scuba diver responsible for actively learning things out of their sphere of familiarity.

I believe my last weekend's experience was highly applicable. My old diving club sold primary donate regulator sets and anyone who purchased it from the club got a free one-day workshop on how to use it, usually followed by socials and BBQ. I have not heard of anyone who could not master the primary donate in a day and most of us all became very good diving buddies afterwards.

I recently did a dive and had to buddy with a diver unfamiliar with the primary donate and I tried to repeat the <5-minute skill drill I learnt from the previous club to this new buddy. They did not listen to my word at all and kept talking with other divers about how weird and disgusting I was. I do not wish to dive with this person in the future - I'm not an instructor or scuba diving business owner and I don't want to purchase a separate set of hoses and dive with it just to appease someone completely unrelated to my life.