Preparing For A Total Silt Out

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Actually, some of us where talking after a dive in JB, about how it must have been a very violent event, that caused some of the huge rocks to collapse that you see on the floor of the cavern. It is all very interesting.

Actually, all it takes is a change in the water levels. That decreases the hydrostatic pressure in the system, in turn decreasing the amount of support the water provides to the ceiling of the cave. I'm pretty sure JB had some collapses several years ago when the county decided to let the dam down to try to clear out the hydrilla in the Mill Pond. I would also guess there was some activity last February when the water levels rose over the concrete walls in the basin then dropped back down to their normal levels.


karstdvr:
Rob
I'll show you a really cool cave in South GA where standard operating procedure is to take a trenching tool,because sometimes you dig your way out

As long as it's planned, I'm all for it. It's the unplanned stuff that concerns me. Maybe I should find somewhere to attach a trenching tool to my rig...
 
Actually, all it takes is a change in the water levels. That decreases the hydrostatic pressure in the system, in turn decreasing the amount of support the water provides to the ceiling of the cave. I'm pretty sure JB had some collapses several years ago when the county decided to let the dam down to try to clear out the hydrilla in the Mill Pond. I would also guess there was some activity last February when the water levels rose over the concrete walls in the basin then dropped back down to their normal levels.




As long as it's planned, I'm all for it. It's the unplanned stuff that concerns me. Maybe I should find somewhere to attach a trenching tool to my rig...

put it on a stage bottle? :)
 
One other tip - Laugh. You might be surprised, but if you feel yourself getting stressed, figure out a way to see humor in it. There have been studies on the subject and you can actually change your response to some of these situations simple by how you view them. Viewed as "oh crap, I'm going to die", and you very well may. Viewed as "shoot - THAT was stupid" and work out the problems - You stand a better chance.[/QUOTE]

How true this is. My buddies and I just finished our cave course and I did something really stupid. Ended up in the clay and slited out the passage. I felt stupid and a wee bit nervous. But all that went away when I heard my buddies laughing at me. I found the line and after a few short kicks back in the clear. Laughter was the key.:D
 
One other tip - Laugh. You might be surprised, but if you feel yourself getting stressed, figure out a way to see humor in it. There have been studies on the subject and you can actually change your response to some of these situations simple by how you view them. Viewed as "oh crap, I'm going to die", and you very well may. Viewed as "shoot - THAT was stupid" and work out the problems - You stand a better chance.

How true this is. My buddies and I just finished our cave course and I did something really stupid. Ended up in the clay and slited out the passage. I felt stupid and a wee bit nervous. But all that went away when I heard my buddies laughing at me. I found the line and after a few short kicks back in the clear. Laughter was the key.:D

I wonder if I will have time to change my Sirius radio to the comedy channel when I see the headlights of an 18 wheeler enter my lane.
 
Karstdvr,
I'm not a cave or cavern diver just simply OW but you made a point earlier in the thread that intrigued me. You basically said (without me quoting directly) that wreck divers often penetrate in sections ie progressively. For some reason I always thought that was the norm for cave diving.

So my question is to you and other cave divers is how do you learn the cave if you are not doing it progressively? I may well have some silly preconceptions here so can you perhaps educate me on how cave divers build up their knowledge of cave diving? I suspect I'm asking an extremely broad question but I'd be interested in any replies.
 
In the past hard core wreck divers only did penetration progressively and did not use lines.

Basically, the cave community brought the use of penetration reels to the wreck community and it was not exactly love at first sight among wreckers who understood the value of getting to know each room or passage in a wreck well before progressing further. Part of it was also the fact that progressive penetration takes time and a large number of dives - limiting longer penetrations to the local zip code divers. Consequently it upset the social order somewhat when cave divers using cave penetration techniques were making significant penterations on their first dive on a wreck. In fact, there are some reports from early line using wreck divers of having the old hands cut their lines as "entanglement hazards".

Troubled history aside, there are benefits to each approach and they work well together. In some regards, there are significant advantages and disadvantages to lines in wrecks that do not apply as much to caves and vice versa. For example, lines often last for years in caves, particularly in little traveled side passages while that is not the case in wrecks filled with sharp edges, changing currents and rapidly decomposing structures, so permanent lines are not left in wrecks and you run your own continuous guideline each time - with no tees, gaps or jumps. On the other hand caves, despite the occasional breakdown or the more frequent silting and other "soft" changes related to flooding and river intrusion are comparatively static so it does not require quite as much frequency as a wreck to maintain a decent level of familiarity and permanent lines are normally laid and left in place.

In terms of learning a new cave, you can gather information from a map and from talking to other divers to acquire information that is not on the map (cave conditions, flow, silt, etc, where the lines is at, marked and unmarked jumps, gaps, etc.) You can also enter unfamiliar areas of a cave with a diver who has been there before and is familiar with it - the caution is to be sure that it does not become a "trust me" dive and that at no point in the dive you do not exceeed your ability to safely exit on your own or with the less exprienced remainder of your team if you get separated or if something goes wrong.

In practice, progressive penetration is something of a norm in cave diving with a prudent cave diver slowly building up experience in a system before pushing on to deeper and farther penetrations, even if in some cases only to the extent that you explore each end of a circuit or traverse before doing the entire circuit or traverse.

It does require situational awareness to note where the line is at, side passages, unique ties offs, potential line traps, navigational markers, and ideally times and pressures at the more significant landmarks or decision points so that if exiting in a silt out you can confirm you are exiting along the proper route and are never in doubt as to where you are, what you should encounter next and approximately when you should encounter it.

There is potentially some irony here as local zip code cave divers are the biggest beneficiaries of progressive penetration and are potentially annoyed and impacted by non local cave divers, many of them who are also wreck divers, some of whom show up and do significant penetrations in "local" caves without showing what is considered due regard and respect to the locals and upset the social order so to speak. What goes around usually comes around. :D
 
Thanks
DA - one question I have to ask - again a somewhat silly question really but how easy is it to learn about the cave from a map ? What I mean is: is it easy to identify what you see on a map drawing ( assuming it's accurate) with what you see in the water and/or do you have to develop both an eye for map reading and an ability to identify distinguishing features of the cave.
 
Sometimes, it depends on the map... Some maps are great(detail wise), some aren't much more than straight lines :) Alot of times, we don't have maps at all :/
 
Thanks
DA - one question I have to ask - again a somewhat silly question really but how easy is it to learn about the cave from a map ? What I mean is: is it easy to identify what you see on a map drawing ( assuming it's accurate) with what you see in the water and/or do you have to develop both an eye for map reading and an ability to identify distinguishing features of the cave.

They are helpful for planning, but you don't execute a cave dive based on the map. For instance, if the map says two tunnels connect and you want to dive the circuit, you have to physically verify both legs of the circuit before you do the dive. You don't know who made the map, whether or not it is accurate or if the cave has changed since it was made. But the map will help you plan for the dive, and for me they are more helpful after the dive so I can correlate what I saw to where it is on the map. So I'll look at the map (if available), do the dive, look at the map again so see how it was represented on the map.
 
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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