Pre tech education

[decompression]

I see what you're saying, but why teach them that "it's doable, but not something I agree with". . Bottom line for me is if it doesn't make sense, why defend it?



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[RJP]

I see what you're saying, but why teach them that "it's doable, but not something I agree with". . Bottom line for me is if it doesn't make sense, why defend it?

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Why teach regulator recovery and clear in water shallow enough to stand in the first confined water dive of the OW class? It doesn't make sense, right? Just stand up. It's taught that way because it's an intro class. Same here. Tec 40 is an intro course where theories and skills are first introduced. Again, if someone signed up for the full tec progression I'd have them in doubles from the start. But if someone wasn't sure and just wanted to give tec 40 a try before making a decision on where to go from there... would I force them to buy or rent doubles? Nope. Don't forget... if they plan to take the course in a single tank they obviously don't own doubles so likely have zero experience in doubles. You'd want that student's first four dives in doubles to be in a deco course?

PS - you haven't yet commented on the fact that TDI allows single cylinders in their deco procedures class. If it doesn't make sense... how do you defend it?

 

[decompression]

Ok, this is getting silly......


Can't you see how you would lose credibility by teaching them something and then saying "we are actually going to do it differently in application, oh, and I don't think it's the best way as well.
Intro level tec course is "PADI discover tec" , that is the time to be shown tec without making the jump. I use the TDI intro in the same way (In doubles as that is how you are going to dive).
The issue still exits that once they complete tec 40 they are certified to deco dive with a single tank (same with TDI). This is something I don't condone, I don't teach to that standard as I've mentioned before, I don't go to lengths to show "it's doable". I would be a hypocrite if I taught proper gas planning but then applied some other rule when completing the open water portion.

Now, I've had a chance to read through the PADI tec 40/45/50 curriculum (I was familiar with it when it first came out as the DSAT tec deep program).
I can see that tec 40 is certainly an entry level course, useful to appeal to more markets (interested in tec but not required to rent other equipment, except deco bottles and buy some other items). I even think keeping things within recreational depths is great.

Really not sure how we got off on this tangent (always the case with SB). In all seriousness, what is taught for gas planning/redundancy in tec 40? RJ, when teaching tec 40 do you plan the training dives within the limits of a single tank or do you only teach tec with doubles?

In the end you can teach however you want. In teaching gas planning and redundancy (still waiting to know what is taught in tec 40) I would show that the limits of single tank decompression diving is questionable but there is a simple and easy solution.......


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[RJP]

RJ, when teaching tec 40 do you plan the training dives within the limits of a single tank or do you only teach tec with doubles?

Do you plan training dives - or any dives - based on a gas capacity that the student doesn't have with him/her? Of course not. A tech dive is planned based on the diver with the least amount of gas. The number of tanks is really immaterial.

That said... for me it's an intellectual discussion since I've never seen nor heard of anyone taking tec 40 (or TDI Deco Procedures for that matter) diving a single tank. I can certainly understand why doubles are a superior choice for most divers. I'm just surprised at the inability of some to see that allowing a single tank in tec 40 isn't a big deal nor a problem in anyway. Especially when multiple other agencies do the same. I'm not sure what the issue is with appropriately planning dives with 10min or less of deco on a single tank. Especially if someone is diving a larger HP tank. If the diver plans/executes a dive where he/she does not have sufficient gas to complete the dive that's not a single-vs-double issue... that's a dive planning issue. If the student walked out of the class thinking that's acceptable then the INSTRUCTOR was also a nimwit.

Consider that every cave agency with a cavern course allow singles for their cavern and most even for their intro to cave courses, and in fact limit doubles diver's to 1/6th gas supply if they DO dive doubles. Would you say that TDI, NACD, NSS-CDS, IANTD, NAUI, PSAI and others "advocate" cave diving on a single tank? Have all of those agencies "lost credibility" in doing so?

 

[tomfcrist]

Rj, it's not the single tank factor that I disagree with....it's the 80cuft minimum.
By placing a minimum on any standard it is by default condoning the use of such an item. I guess technically if you taught tec 40 with a student in an al80 you would be violating the standard, but it's a technicality. Hey, your student has a .4 working sac...great. What is your sac? What is his buddy's sac going to be when he has his card? There are too many variables. If you are going to slap a minimum acceptable size on the tank, go for 100...or even better 120.

I'm also confused by your lack of currency on NAUI standards, but your willingness to shout out falsehoods like you are the expert on NAUIs S&P. I'll re-educate you.

Intro to tech pre reqs are Ow, nitrox, 25 dives w/10 nitrox. Can be done I. A single tank with H or Y valves. 60' max depth...no deco.

There is no advanced nitrox, as it has been combined with deco procedures.

Deco procedures pre reqs- master diver, intro to tech, 50 dives w/15 on nitrox. Max depth 130', O2 deco.

NAUI cavern can be taught in a single.

Cave 1 must be taught in back mounted doubles with a minimum of 140cuft capacity, 100' max depth...no deco. 75 dives to get in w/intro to tech complete. No requirement for a cavern card.

As far as redundancy, I suggest you get ahold of the current ntec configuration and the current S&P. read the equipment reqs for each course and then you can retract your uneducated comments from earlier.

To be clear, I'm not trying to pump up NAUI, but when you put false claims about the programs I teach on the "forever there" internet, I am inclined to correct you.
Additionally I would like you to know that I'm not trying to be a prick, but after proof reading I could see how you may think I am...not the intention at all.

 

[decompression]

Do you plan training dives - or any dives - based on a gas capacity that the student doesn't have with him/her? Of course not. A tech dive is planned based on the diver with the least amount of gas. The number of tanks is really immaterial.

That said... for me it's an intellectual discussion since I've never seen nor heard of anyone taking tec 40 (or TDI Deco Procedures for that matter) diving a single tank. I can certainly understand why doubles are a superior choice for most divers. I'm just surprised at the inability of some to see that allowing a single tank in TEC 40 isn't a big deal nor a problem in anyway. Especially when multiple other agencies do the same. I'm not sure what the issue is with appropriately planning dives with 10min or less of deco on a single tank. Especially if someone is diving a larger HP tank. If the diver plans/executes a dive where he/she does not have sufficient gas to complete the dive that's not a single-vs-double issue... that's a dive planning issue. If the student walked out of the class thinking that's acceptable then the INSTRUCTOR was also a nimwit.

Consider that every cave agency with a cavern course allow singles for their cavern and most even for their intro to cave courses, and in fact limit doubles diver's to 1/6th gas supply if they DO dive doubles. Would you say that TDI, NACD, NSS-CDS, IANTD, NAUI, PSAI and others "advocate" cave diving on a single tank? Have all of those agencies "lost credibility" in doing so?

Ok RJ, I'll try to explain why I don't train deco with a single tank. If it makes sense to you, great, if not no worries. Before though, I need to know some details about the TEC 40 course. I've asked several times about how gas planning/redundancy is taught, you are a TEC instructor, right? Please look in your instructor manual and tell me, is it thirds? Rock Bottom? What? What is the deco gas?EANX 50? O2?

Anyways,

-Gas planning requires contingencies, the dive plan includes these contingencies and the tank/tanks capacity should be chosen accordingly.
- The appropriate gas/gases are selected and should be sufficient for the dive and for contingencies.
-Redundancy must be simple, accessible and enable completion of the dive, including deco.

These are the issues;
- does a single tank and deco bottle have sufficient capacity for entry level deco dives and contingency ( considering depth, reserve, SAC etc). As I mentioned before not many and you agreed, "doable but....."
- the only redundancy is your deco bottle or buddy. Deco bottle may not be available due to depth, so buddy is the only option. Now hopefully there is sufficient gas planned for previously.
- so while the majority of deco dives will be with doubles, training with a single does nothing in preparation for this. (SMB, oxtox, propulsion etc are taught in open water). Other than adding a deco bottle to very likely a vest BCD (if you don't want to shell out the big bucks to rent doubles, why rent a BP/W).

So, a simple set of AL80's, found all over the word, manifolded or independent, solves capacity, redundancy and the next step to deco diving until additional bottles and stages are added. It just makes sense. As you've mentioned, you've never heard of anyone doing TEC on a single, neither have I. Perhaps it doesn't make sense.





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[PfcAJ]

I'm generally not a fan of single tanks in an overhead (real or virtual), but the main thing that separates a deco dive from cavern dive is that if everything goes pear shaped with your gas supply you can cut and run for the surface on a cavern dive (in theory anyways) with a modified CESA. With deco you're on the hook and need to be able to a)have enough gas and b)solve your gas loss problem.

 

[uncfnp]

As a student of scuba and not an instructor, the opinions offered by many of the instructors involved in this therad is greatly appreciated. But how about some hard statistics like the number of divers that have subsequently been injuried directed due toparticipation a class diving single tank with dual outlet. The classes have been around long enough that I think such information should be available. That more than opinion should guide potential students away from such courses.

But in the absence of such fact, I for one appreciate the oppotumity that courses such as Tec 40 offer to the curious diver. Dive computers are trending toward more and more conservative profiles and I think more divers are finding themselves in so called "lite deco" without the traditional doubles. Right or wrong it happens. Any course, properly taught, that educates divers toward the goal of safer diving is a positive step. Tec 40 and classes like it, bridges the gap between full head on high dollar, gear intensive tradition tech diving and the typical AOW diver that just wants to learn more and be a better overall diver. And just maybe decide to later dive head first into full tech.

Is there the potential of a student diver going beyond the training? Of course, but that is true for every single scuba course, from OW onward.

decompression, you and I both know that BP/W is no longer solely the providence of the tech diver and no, as almost any thread on SB will show, most divers out of OW are not aware much less proficient in oxtox, SMB, propulsion...

 

[RJP]

Ok RJ, I'll try to explain why I don't train deco with a single tank. If it makes sense to you, great, if not no worries.

You're vehemently arguing a point I'm not making.

I completely understand... and agree with the approach of doing and teaching deco dives in doubles. I'm just not dogmatically incapable of seeing that there are some circumstances where teaching an intro-level tech course to a student in a single tank might be acceptable. What I've been pointing out that doesn't make sense to me is the selective outrage that PADI "advocates single tank tech diving" while several other agencies seemingly do as well, by the criteria you're using to define "advocate" in this instance. The fact that you don't teach that way is all well and good... but doesn't change the fact that TDI "advocates" single tank tech diving in exactly the same way that PADI does.

Before though, I need to know some details about the TEC 40 course. I've asked several times about how gas planning/redundancy is taught,

you are a TEC instructor, right?

Nope.

What is the deco gas?EANX 50? O2?

Up to 50%

These are the issues;

- does a single tank and deco bottle have sufficient capacity for entry level deco dives and contingency ( considering depth, reserve, SAC etc). As I mentioned before not many and you agreed, "doable but....."

Depends on the dive plan. I wouldn't plan a dive for which I did not have sufficient gas.

- the only redundancy is your deco bottle or buddy.

I'm assuming there's an instructor in this class setting... and that he's not freediving so has a gas supply.

Deco bottle may not be available due to depth, so buddy is the only option.

I'm assuming the non-freediving instructor would have taught MOD considerations when selecting gasses and planning the dive. If your deco bottle is your planned redundancy... make sure you can breathe it at max depth.

- so while the majority of deco dives will be with doubles, training with a single does nothing in preparation for this. (SMB, oxtox, propulsion etc are taught in open water).

If the student is diving a single tank... do you suppose that the course is modified such that NOTHING is taught? That would be the only way that the course could "do nothing" to prepare someone for deco diving. The course covers everything whether the student is diving a single tank or doubles. If the student wants to transition to doubles after taking tec 40 they'd only need to add valve shut-down skill to what they learned in the class.

Other than adding a deco bottle to very likely a vest BCD (if you don't want to shell out the big bucks to rent doubles, why rent a BP/W).

A large proportion of recreational divers in this area dive BP/W. At the shop where I trained the vast majority of single tank divers do. In fact we put all our OW students in BP/W.

---------- Post added January 21st, 2015 at 08:43 PM ----------

But how about some hard statistics like the number of divers that have subsequently been injuried directed due toparticipation a class diving single tank with dual outlet. The classes have been around long enough that I think such information should be available. That more than opinion should guide potential students away from such courses.

Such statistics are not available for any course or accidents. Even if they were, direct causation would be difficult to establish.

 

[decompression]

Uncfnp, agreed. Although, the only places I could see teaching deco on a single is warm water, 100' vis locales. I've travelled all over and still the majority are poodle jackets. These are the places that would offer the money maker of a course. If people are interested in deco but unsure then that's what intro courses are for. These bridge the gap safely. Not too say," here is a certification I authorize you to do these dives with less than optimal gear". And just like other courses, go out and slowly increase your depth/time to gain experience which will soon be beyond your equipment. I think we are doing a disservice to people. Especially when the solution is so simple, so easy and so affordable.


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