Pre tech education

[Seya]

Student Equipment Requirements  
1. Twin cylinders with dual manifold and isolator or independent cylinders in a sidemount configuration  
2. Primary and secondary regulators – primary regulator must have seven foot/two meter hose for air  sharing.  
3. SPG. In sidemount configuration both regulators must have SPGs. 
4. Harness with shoulder and hip D‐rings (backmount or sidemount). 
5. BCD – wings  
6. Stage/deco cylinder with attachment hardware, a single second stage regulator, and SPG. Note: It is  recommended that each diver have and use individual stage/deco cylinders. However, it is acceptable for  students to practice required skills with a shared cylinder. All cylinders must be filled with air only,  simulating higher oxygen content as needed for skill development.  
7. Dive computer 
8. Appropriate exposure suit 
9. Weight System, if required to offset buoyancy created by equipment and exposure protection. 
10. Reel or spool 
11. Knife/cutting device 
12. Slate 
13. Compass 
14. Lift bag or DSMB 




I'm not positive this is just what I have for the manual it might not be up to date

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[RJP]

So PADI advocates that doing deco on a single AL80 is acceptable?

With a little reading comprehension of what was posted, it's pretty clear that is NOT the case.

What they do advocate is having sufficient gas supply and appropriate redundancy for a given dive plan conducted in the setting of an introductory course.

Is it possible to take Tech 40 (an intro level course) with a single tank... sure.

Is a single 80 an appropriate long-term choice for someone going down the tech route? Of course not. In fact, that's exactly why PADI clearly advocates "the utilization of the full Tec set up" which Seya has posted in the subsequent post above.

 

[tomfcrist]

With a little reading comprehension of what was posted, it's pretty clear that is NOT the case.

What they do advocate is having sufficient gas supply and appropriate redundancy for a given dive plan conducted in the setting of an introductory course.

Is it possible to take Tech 40 (an intro level course) with a single tank... sure.

Is a single 80 an appropriate long-term choice for someone going down the tech route? Of course not. In fact, that's exactly why PADI clearly advocates "the utilization of the full Tec set up" which Seya has posted in the subsequent post above.

I disagree.

Their standards for the Tec40 class state: Diving cylinder with a minimum of 80 cubic feet with a dual-outlet valve on the cylinder ( .Y. or .H. valve) or 2 diving cylinders at least 80 cf tank.

Im sorry, but this is unacceptable. I don't give a **** what your air consumption rate is, 80 cuft is not nearly sufficient. However by putting that into the standard, some nimwit is going to assume that a single 80cuft cylinder is sufficient to conduct deco dives at 130'. Yes I can read the part that says they recommend a twinset, but they think double 40's is ok. That is not nearly enough gas for a deco dive at the rated depth. In my opinion it is irresponsible to even indicate that it is an acceptable practice.

 

[decompression]

With a little reading comprehension of what was posted, it's pretty clear that is NOT the case.

What they do advocate is having sufficient gas supply and appropriate redundancy for a given dive plan conducted in the setting of an introductory course.

Is it possible to take Tech 40 (an intro level course) with a single tank... sure.

Is a single 80 an appropriate long-term choice for someone going down the tech route? Of course not. In fact, that's exactly why PADI clearly advocates "the utilization of the full Tec set up" which Seya has posted in the subsequent post above.

How are they taught "appropriate redundancy/sufficient gas supply"? There aren't a lot of deco profiles that can be completed with 77cuft air and 40 cuft of deco gas that enable 2 divers to do the dive, complete deco and return to the surface. Maybe 10 minutes at 140'......pretty tight though.



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[RJP]

I disagree.

Their standards for the Tec40 class state: Diving cylinder with a minimum of 80 cubic feet with a dual-outlet valve on the cylinder ( .Y. or .H. valve) or 2 diving cylinders at least 80 cf tank.

Im sorry, but this is unacceptable. I don't give a **** what your air consumption rate is, 80 cuft is not nearly sufficient. However by putting that into the standard, some nimwit is going to assume that a single 80cuft cylinder is sufficient to conduct deco dives at 130'. Yes I can read the part that says they recommend a twinset, but they think double 40's is ok. That is not nearly enough gas for a deco dive at the rated depth. In my opinion it is irresponsible to even indicate that it is an acceptable practice.

So you believe that the minimum acceptable requirements to begin an introductory course constitutes what an agency "advocates" for tech diving in general? (The fact that they clarify what they actually advocate further down the same page notwithstanding?)

If you are to believe that, then you must also believe that NAUI "advocates" that tech divers Dive without redundant instrumentation an only carry one cutting tool

They also "advocate" that prospective tech divers only need 25 dives total, and only 5 nitrox dives to enroll in the course. Further, they advocate that there is no need at all for any deep diving certification or experience to enroll in the course. (I won't tell you that PADI has more rigorous requirements to enter the Tec 40 course that NAUI does for ITD... lest youpull your hair out.)

Sorry... but given what the agency advocates I find NAUI's approach to tech diving to be unacceptable. I don't give a **** what the rest of the training manual says. By putting this sort of stuff into the standards, some nimwit is going to assume that the gear and experience cited above is sufficient to conduct deco dives at 130'. In my opinion it is irresponsible to even indicate that it is an acceptable practice.

:cool2:

PS - where does padi say that "double 40's" is OK? If it's because you're misreading "two diving cylinders at least 80f" as the total amount of gas "between two tanks" rather than "per tank" capacity...then NAUI obviously "advocates" tech diving with twin manifolded 6cf bottles... since the NAUI Intro to Tech standards don't specific ANY minimum gas capacity for the double cylinders.

---------- Post added January 20th, 2015 at 03:25 PM ----------

How are they taught "appropriate redundancy/sufficient gas supply"? There aren't a lot of deco profiles that can be completed with 77cuft air and 40 cuft of deco gas that enable 2 divers to do the dive, complete deco and return to the surface. Maybe 10 minutes at 140'......pretty tight though.

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C'mon... it's a "skills and theory" intro course. As a TDI instructor you'll be interested (or surprised, apparently) to note that TDI allows single cylinders with "volume sufficient for the planned dives and student gas consumption"" in the Decompression Procedures course... though "backmounted double cylinders are allowed."

Yet, somehow a person who finishes the TDI course is able to plan and conduct dives to 150fsw. How's that possible?

 

[Remy B.]

Interesting what lays ahead of my development with courses.

For instance my instructor will not allow anyone to take the rescue course without having 30 dives, but that is his own requirements at least from the school because the other instructors aggree on the same.

By the other hand there are individuals that are more proeficient in taking and executing the knowledge and there are other individuals with more dives but that still don't be as good, I guess the certifing agencies concluded their numbers of ammount of dives required as an average or statistics.

 

[lowviz]

So PADI advocates that doing deco on a single AL80 is acceptable? Makes no sense. I wont let my AOW students dive a deep wreck and stay within NDL on an 80....H-valve or not.

Well, since two matched divers with RMV's of 0.4 cuft/min can both use their own single 80 (77.4) air filled to 3200 psi to do a 20 minute true buddy dive to 100' and hit real deco while observing ALL protocols from thirds to rock bottom and a 3 minute safety stop, who am I to say it is a bad idea?

(I wouldn't do it either)

 

[tomfcrist]

RJP, Tec40 is not an intro to tech course...intro to tech courses don't teach limited deco, they teach configurations and skills.

If I wasn't on my phone I would gladly pick apart your entire post, but I am not willing to spend the time doing it right now. Maybe later.

Lowviz, anyone planning a dive with a .4 working rate is a numbskull...

 

[TSandM]

Why is someone planning a dive with a .4 working rate a numbskull? That's a conservative 30% increase in my working SAC rate; I often plan using .4 as a safety number. I have a 6' cave diving buddy for whom it would be an even more conservative number.

Back to the topic at hand: It is really not necessary to have a deep grounding in deco theory to execute safe staged decompression dives. Understanding the theory is satisfying, and I think it may help someone understand that the procedures and strategy they are learning are no more than the best guesses we have as to how things should be done. I think it's good to understand that there is ongoing controversy over decompression (search this board for "deep stops" if you don't realize this.). But the most important preparation for a technical course is to ensure you have absolutely solid basics. It is within the reach of every diver, to be able to hover quietly in horizontal trim, while performing basic skills like mask skills and air-sharing. It is within the reach of every diver to master several non-silting propulsion techniques, and learn precise maneuvering, including back kicking. It is, however, difficult to perform skills like gas switches, if you are all over the water when asked to do anything more than breathe .

Study the 5thD-X YouTube videos. That's the level of stability you are aiming for. THAT's where to focus your energies before your class.

BTW, I am not speaking theoretically. When I took my cavern class, we had two GUE Fundamentals graduates and one diver coming straight from standard OW-type training and diving. The two of us who had done Fundies pretty much sailed through the class, experiencing some of the drills as just plain trivial. The other diver did not complete the course.

 

[decompression]

So you believe that the minimum acceptable requirements to begin an introductory course constitutes what an agency "advocates" for tech diving in general? (The fact that they clarify what they actually advocate further down the same page notwithstanding?)

If you are to believe that, then you must also believe that NAUI "advocates" that tech divers Dive without redundant instrumentation an only carry one cutting tool

They also "advocate" that prospective tech divers only need 25 dives total, and only 5 nitrox dives to enroll in the course. Further, they advocate that there is no need at all for any deep diving certification or experience to enroll in the course. (I won't tell you that PADI has more rigorous requirements to enter the Tec 40 course that NAUI does for ITD... lest youpull your hair out.)

Sorry... but given what the agency advocates I find NAUI's approach to tech diving to be unacceptable. I don't give a **** what the rest of the training manual says. By putting this sort of stuff into the standards, some nimwit is going to assume that the gear and experience cited above is sufficient to conduct deco dives at 130'. In my opinion it is irresponsible to even indicate that it is an acceptable practice.

:cool2:

PS - where does padi say that "double 40's" is OK? If it's because you're misreading "two diving cylinders at least 80f" as the total amount of gas "between two tanks" rather than "per tank" capacity...then NAUI obviously "advocates" tech diving with twin manifolded 6cf bottles... since the NAUI Intro to Tech standards don't specific ANY minimum gas capacity for the double cylinders.

---------- Post added January 20th, 2015 at 03:25 PM ----------



C'mon... it's a "skills and theory" intro course. As a TDI instructor you'll be interested (or surprised, apparently) to note that TDI allows single cylinders with "volume sufficient for the planned dives and student gas consumption"" in the Decompression Procedures course... though "backmounted double cylinders are allowed."

Yet, somehow a person who finishes the TDI course is able to plan and conduct dives to 150fsw. How's that possible?

Very aware of the minimum standard, just after all these years I've never had anyone do the bare minimum, nor would I allow or condone it. I'm disappointed that a tech instructor would do this for all the reasons not too, made apparent so far.

Even "intro to tech" should bedone in doubles.........imho.


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