Prayer is useless?

[MikeFerrara]

mike, i think if Jesus saw the collective wealth of your average American church,
he wold be horrified at what could be done with it and isnt being done.

rememer the "sell all you have and give it to the poor" bit?

I don't know what you're calling average. I attend a church that has a little over 200 members with maybe a dozen or two who attend but aren't voting members. The church supports 1 full time pastor and 1 full time assistant pastor (recently added). The building is not all that big and built where land isn't worth much and there's just enough there to do what it needs to. It's non-denomentional so there's no corp or head office to get money from or send money to.

The church is governed by a group of "elders" and the voting membership of the church. I'm not a voting member and I haven't seen the financials but I'm really not sure how they pay the heat bill. They do pay the heat bill though as well as contribute to several missionaries and orginizations (like orphinages) both local and non-local. They also work to raise money for other things that come up like special events or people in the community in need.

The church has been in existance for something over 100 years serving what's basically a farming community and nobody is getting wealthy. In fact, the new assistant pastor left a position as an engineering manager to enter full time ministry. I don't know for certain but my guess is that he probably took about a 70% pay cut in order to do that. Again, I haven't seen the financials (though I could) so I don't know exactly what the pastor gets paid (certainly all the voting members who attent church meetings do) but he and his family live pretty modestly. Now, I say I'm not a voting member and that's because I haven't made any attemp to become one though I have been invited to enter into the process which is basically a couple of meetings with church elders and having the membership vote. I am still welcome to attend business meetings so though I haven't seen the financials they are not at all off limits to me.

The bottom line is that I'm pretty comfortable that church finances are managed in such a way as to be consistant with the churches doctrinal statement and Biblical standards of stewardship. So...by all means, bring on the heavenly auditors.

Again, I'm not sure what you're calling average but the landscape is dotted with little churches like this one and I'll bet that many are run similarly.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Well, that's about it for me in this thread. I got in it to try to correct some real misconceptions that some posters seemed to have about what the Bible actually says not to try to convince any one to believe it...not my job man. BTW, the folks who conducted the subject study and participated in it must have been under many of the same misconceptions. It's sort of a shame to see folks bad mouth Christianity when their statements clearly indicate that they don't understand what it is or, likewise, to down grade the content of the Bible when their statements show that they don't know what that content is. Organized religion? No doubt it can be a distraction from worship. Nothing new there, which is why I choose to attend a non-denominational church that does it's best to base its beliefes and actions on the Bible and nothing else and who's main goal is to teach what's in it and guide members in it's application.

Blaming so many of the worlds ills on "religion", "a religion" or "the church" seems like common bigitry to me. Certainly some churhes or people claiming to act on behalf of a church have commited injustces, misappropriated money ect but how much more of the same could we drop in the lap of government...all governments? Well, just some stuff to think about. Later.

 

[Soggy]

Ethics is not the study of right and wrong.

Once again, you are quite plainly and simply wrong. Ethics is the study of right and wrong and is a branch of philosophy devoted to that study...one I have spent a significant amount of time and energy researching. Ethics, alone, as a noun, is a set of rules (ala your definiton). "Morals" and "ethics" are synonyms. It's always been a pet peeve of mine when people try to separate the two. Please visit dictionary.com before you correct my usage of a word again.

I am not talking simply about "a standard" that was dreamed up by man (or woman). I am talking about a standard that transcends culture, ethics, time and space.
Is murder wrong? Well, that all depends how you define murder. Is adultery wrong? That all depends I guess. Is stealing wrong? What is stealing? What culture? Who says? What if someone else says differently later on and it effects you? If there is no objective standard then right and wrong is a free for all.

Yup, all those things do pretty much depend on the circumstances of the situation. Murder is always wrong, but killing is not always murder. The only thing that makes adultery wrong is the fact that it causes harm to those we love and increases the potential for disease (thus harming ourselves or potentially others). In a society where we weren't quite as sexually inhibited, it might not be wrong at all. In my world, my relationship, it is wrong, but hey you and your wife might like to swing...have at it. In that sense, I guess you are right. A few things that are explicitly wrong in some religions could actually be ethically acceptable given societal changes. The rules you list above, however, are *legally* (and religiously) wrong because if everyone were doing those things, especially the generally uneducated populus a couple thousand years ago, society would've fallen apart. So, it's easier to just say, "x is wrong and y will happen" rather than allow everyone to work it out on their own.

The objective standard can be discovered through the study of ethics...through logic and reason. Your jump to "no god = no standard" is fallacious. Just because there is no god, doesn't mean that reasoning won't allow us to evaluate a behavior objectively. It's just not as easy as "he said so."

Additionally, so what if there isn't a standard? You can't prove the existence of God by saying that, if there were no God, there are absolute rights and wrongs. One simply does not follow the other in any way.

 

[Fish_Whisperer]

I will just say, as my last post to this thread, that the God I believe in isn't going to damn anyone. I don't believe in an eternal hell of torment and fire, and even the Pope came out in Time Magazine, some years ago, and said that Hell was most likely, a state of consciousness -- of feeling separated from God. The God I believe in isn't an angry, jealous, emotionally unstable tyrant that commands people to sacrifice their sons, or tells armies to kill women and children. (Read your Old Testament, and please don't tell me that "That's the Old Testament, and God isn't like that," because it's been said over and over that God is unchanging and is the same yesterday as he is today, and will be tomorrow," etc. ad infinitum.

The God I believe in isn't interested in blood sacrifices (how barbaric!) and I don't believe that someone who died over two thousand years ago has any bearing, whatsoever, on what I choose to do with my life.

The God I believe in is ultimately loving, ultimately detached, and is First Cause, rather than becoming insanely angry at every little thing that happens on this tiny planet. More of an omnipresent force, rather than a manic-depressive psychopathic Cosmic Santa, sitting on a throne somewhere beyond outer space. I belive that there are spiritual laws that work as immutably and seamlessly as the laws of physics. I believe in karma, reincarnation, this earth as a schoolhouse and a refining process for Souls, and I believe that as Soul wearing a physical body, that we are all (animals included) sparks of God, and that we are here to learn how to love and serve all of life, and that God is knowing ITSELF through us, experientially. I also believe that God still speaks to us through dreams, and when we are quiet enough to actually listen, (meditation/contemplation) and that as we open our hearts to Divine Love, as we serve and love those around us, we are loving and serving God.

The Devil, (the negative force) is set up as a schoolmaster in this schoolhouse, and puts Souls through the experiences necessary for them to grow and mature, so that they can learn how to be useful, loving, and kind. Every experience brings opportunities for new growth and deeper wisdom and compassion for those who have the ability and desire to see these gifts and to work with them, rather than childishly railing at God to take the problem away, or demanding to be healed.

My beliefs are purely my own and I'm not interested in convincing anyone else. I will say, that no matter how people insist that their particular path is the only ONE AND TRUE path, no one has a monopoly on Truth, and the God I believe in is big enough to have made a road Home for every Soul.

My best to you in your respective faiths. If the religion/path you are following is making you a kinder, more loving and spiritual person, then it is the right path for you.

My best to you.

 

[Potapko]

Thank you for so clearly stating your beliefs Frank. Although I would fight to protect your right to not only believe this, but to teach it to whoever would listen, it is a clear violation of the second commandment.

Creating a god in one's own image, that means, the way they think god should be.

good luck on your journey,
Jeff

I will just say, as my last post to this thread, that the God I believe in isn't going to damn anyone. I don't believe in an eternal hell of torment and fire, and even the Pope came out in Time Magazine, some years ago, and said that Hell was most likely, a state of consciousness -- of feeling separated from God. The God I believe in isn't an angry, jealous, emotionally unstable tyrant that commands people to sacrifice their sons, or tells armies to kill women and children. (Read your Old Testament, and please don't tell me that "That's the Old Testament, and God isn't like that," because it's been said over and over that God is unchanging and is the same yesterday as he is today, and will be tomorrow," etc. ad infinitum.

The God I believe in isn't interested in blood sacrifices (how barbaric!) and I don't believe that someone who died over two thousand years ago has any bearing, whatsoever, on what I choose to do with my life.

The God I believe in is ultimately loving, ultimately detached, and is First Cause, rather than becoming insanely angry at every little thing that happens on this tiny planet. More of an omnipresent force, rather than a manic-depressive psychopathic Cosmic Santa, sitting on a throne somewhere beyond outer space. I belive that there are spiritual laws that work as immutably and seamlessly as the laws of physics. I believe in karma, reincarnation, this earth as a schoolhouse and a refining process for Souls, and I believe that as Soul wearing a physical body, that we are all (animals included) sparks of God, and that we are here to learn how to love and serve all of life, and that God is knowing ITSELF through us, experientially. I also believe that God still speaks to us through dreams, and when we are quiet enough to actually listen, (meditation/contemplation) and that as we open our hearts to Divine Love, as we serve and love those around us, we are loving and serving God.

The Devil, (the negative force) is set up as a schoolmaster in this schoolhouse, and puts Souls through the experiences necessary for them to grow and mature, so that they can learn how to be useful, loving, and kind. Every experience brings opportunities for new growth and deeper wisdom and compassion for those who have the ability and desire to see these gifts and to work with them, rather than childishly railing at God to take the problem away, or demanding to be healed.

My beliefs are purely my own and I'm not interested in convincing anyone else. I will say, that no matter how people insist that their particular path is the only ONE AND TRUE path, no one has a monopoly on Truth, and the God I believe in is big enough to have made a road Home for every Soul.

My best to you in your respective faiths. If the religion/path you are following is making you a kinder, more loving and spiritual person, then it is the right path for you.

My best to you.

 

[Potapko]

The Anvil:
The Anvil that Has Worn Out Many Hammers
Nineteenth century writer H.L. Hastings once forcibly illustrated the unique way in which the Bible has withstood the attacks of skepticism:

"Infidels of eighteen hundred years have been refuting and overthrowing this book, and yet it stands today as solid rock. Its circulation increases, and it is more loved and cherished and read today than ever before. Infidels, with all their assaults, make about as much impression on this book as a man with a tack hammer would on the Pyramids of Egypt.

"When the French monarch proposed the persecution of Christians in his dominion, an old statesman and warrior said to him, 'Sire, the church of God is an anvil that has worn out many hammers.' So the hammers of infidels have been pecking away at this book for ages, but the hammers are worn out, and the anvil still endures. If this book had not been the book of God, men would have destroyed it long ago. Emperors and popes, kings and priests, princes and rulers have all tried their hand at it; they die and the book still lives."

"No other book has been so chopped, knived, sifted, scrutinized, and vilified. What book on philosophy or religion or psychology or belles lettres of classical or modern times has been subject to such a mass attack as the Bible? With such venom and skepticism? With such thoroughness and erudition? Upon every chapter, line and tenet? The Bible is still loved by millions, and studied by millions.


THE INDESTRUCTIBLE NATURE OF THE BIBLE

Although the Bible was first recorded on perishable materials such as papyrus and was dependent on being copied by hand for three thousand years, it has against all odds arrived in the hands of modern man as the best attested document of antiquity. There is more manuscript evidence for the text of the Bible than any other work of ancient literature. The Bible then in the providence of God has withstood the forces of nature and time surviving to this day as the most resilient book of all time.

POLITICAL ENEMIES

Time and nature are not the only forces that have been at work to threaten the survival of the scriptures. From the early persecutions of the Roman Empire to the assaults of the modern godless communist dictatorships the Bible has been the focal point of many attempts to destroy it. The first major political state sponsored attacks came from the Roman Emperors. While there was a number of harsh persecutions of the Christian community in early history of the church by Rome the most severe came at the hands of Diocletian emperor of Rome who in 303 AD issued an edict calling for the destruction of the Christian churches and scriptures along with death for those who would not renounce their faith. Even though great harm was done during this time, not long after this persecution in 313 AD the edict of Milan was issued under Constantine the new Roman Emperor which granted religious freedom to all in the Empire. At this same time Constantine commissioned Eusebius a contemporary Christian leader to have 50 copies of the Christian scriptures prepared at the expense of the state to be used in the Churches. After these persecutions the Roman Empire continued to decline until it's death, while the church flourished and the scriptures lived on.

Paralleling these events not long ago the communist government of Russia severely restricted and persecuted the Christian church and the scriptures. Like the Roman Empire the communists of Russia have collapsed but the church and the scriptures have survived. Furthermore, Bibles are freely distributed in the public schools were they were once banned and the Church openly proclaims God's word. In fact it is sad to say that Bibles today are more freely distributed in the schools of what was once communist Russia than they are in the schools of the United States of America.

PHILOSOPHICAL ENEMIES

Many throughout history have found the truth of the scriptures to be in direct conflict with their philosophical worldview. Voltaire noted skeptic of the 18th century predicted that Christianity and the scriptures would pass into obsolescence within 100 years of his death. Fifty years later the Geneva Bible society was using his printing press and house to produce Bibles. In more recent times those rejecting any notion of the supernatural have promoted evolution as the key to understanding the true nature of man. These theories, once so boldly asserted, contradicted the biblical teaching of creation and seemed to undermine and threaten the credibility of scripture. Like all other past threats evolution is now beginning to fade into the past as many in the scientific community admit that the tenants of this theory are not withstanding the test of time and new advances in biology. Those who have placed their trust in the scriptures do well to patiently weather the temporary storms of skepticism knowing that in due time the truth will once again shine brightly and live on.

 

[MSilvia]

My beliefs are purely my own and I'm not interested in convincing anyone else.

Your beliefs bear a striking resemblance to mine. Thanks for describing them so eloquently. I'd love sometime to discuss how I believe the "spark of God" and reincarnation may be related.

it is a clear violation of the second commandment.

I'd be a lot more worried about that if I believed in the god that is supposed to have made the commandments. I am unconcerned by that in the same sense that I suspect you would be unconcerned if told Charon will refuse to ferry your soul across the river Styx if you're buried wthout coins on your eyes. Although we may disagree in our beliefs, I sincerely appreciate your inclination to defend our rights to them. In that, we are agreed.

 

[Fish_Whisperer]

Thank you for so clearly stating your beliefs Frank. Although I would fight to protect your right to not only believe this,

As I would, (and have) fought for your right to believe as you wish.

Creating a god in one's own image, that means, the way they think god should be.

And you have objective (i.e. no more circular logic, please) knowledge of how God actually is? How interesting... The fact is, we all relate to God in a way that we have created God to be, because none of us truly can Know, other than through our own observations of God's face and voice in the world around us, filtered through our own experiences, and through whatever cultural/social background that we were raised with. (i.e. "through a glass, but darkly...." as Paul wrote)

good luck on your journey,
Jeff

And to you, as well.

 

[adurso]

The next time I speak to the Flying Spaghetti Monster I will ask about all of this...

 

[Fish_Whisperer]

Please do, Adurso. May his Supreme Pasta-ness's noodly appendages bless and keep thee.:glassez: