Poor Students, or Poor instructors?

[sharpenu]

So are you proposing that the government regulate the sport? Which government? Scuba is an international sport. Or are you proposing an industry solution? If so, which agency's standards will you follow? Naui? PADI? SSI? GUE? They can't even agree on a table, much less the entire certification.

 

[livestodive]

I am not an instructor, nor even an advanced diver as of yet. I was lucky enough to see 2 agencies way of training. 1st was padi, my wife and I were certified in the Keys, and the instructor did a good job. However what that agency didn't account for was how some divers are not really comfortable in the water even when they passed all of their skills. when my wife and i went home we had to buy our gear. then i went to 3 different dive shops. the first had his hand in my pocket and tried to sell me stuff that didn't fit, nixed that one .. second one was too busy trying on stuff themselves to talk to me and lost my business. then THANKFULLY I found the third. It didn't have all the fancy stuff the other two had but after I talked to the shop owner and explained that we were looking for equipment,,, the first thing I was told that if I bought the equipment there he wanted us to go to the pool during the next class and try out our new gear. I found a winner. we went to the pool 3 times, never a charge and I was able to get my wife a lot more comfortable with all her skills. They were so nice that I had all 4 of my kids certified there! At that lds if you are not ready they rotate you into the next class for the pool sesions and ow dives. I have 60 dives this year, most in cold new england waters and still struggle with the tables. Part of that problem is that there is just no place to practice them enough to get good with them. hmmm maybe somone could set up a page with a few problems and let us newbies practice and ask a few questions?? just a thought. but I did find a lds that cared about diving as much as making money!!

 

[Se7en]

Originally posted by NetDoc
PADI nor I can be held accountable for such an instructor. The AOW course does not make you a deep diver... thats why they have a deep diver specialty.

On one hand people complain how cheap and quick PADI is, on the other they chastise it for being money hungry with all of the extra certs. They do work together, and I think they work reasonably well. It's a divide and conquer mentality.

BTW, an instructor that teaches his students in the manner you speak is using his OWN ridiculous logic. My ridiculous logic has students being taught in a responsible manner, and actually mastering skills as they are needed.

Pete
Firstly - thanks for picking up on the DM vs Master diver difference.

Second - I still disagree with you (which is a little unusual as I tend to agree with you on most 'religious' issues)

Common understanding here, and from memory reinforced by the PADI manuals, is that an OW diver can dive to 18m max, and an AOW can dive to 30m max. The PADI 'Deep diver' course allows you to go to 40m. So AOW does not make you a deep diver, but it does allow you to dive to depths where issues like air management and deco limits do need managing.

So you (and PADI) are advocating that you take a diver who has done 4 open water course dives, plus 4 AOW course dives, including one deep dive (which involves swimming down, playing tic tac toe, and doing some sort of ascent...) and telling them and the world that they are certified to dive to 30m. in a buddy pair with another diver of the same experience.

I suggest that it would be a better system to require a minimum number of open water dives (say 20), in the conditions which the divers are trained too, before allowing students to begin the AOW. Force them sort out how this whole diving thing works, and let them start to really enjoy diving, in easy conditions. In 50 feet max depth on a single tank, it is extremely difficult to actually stuff up badly. You are very unlikely to get bent, and all divers should be able to manage an out of air ascent from these depths. The only real riisk is someone breath holding - which is why the main message of OW course is to breath.

Then give them a taste of more advanced diving with an AOW course. Once they have had a chance to play with boyancy, do a real boyance fine tuning session. Once they have got lost, do a useful navigation course. Introduce them to night diving, and introduce them to the issues of diving deeper in a realistic manner - rather than just another explanation of table usage. (If you insist that the 20 dives are correctly logged using the tables, you may actually find that diver start to understand the tables, rather than just copy exercises from their instructor).

Net doc - I believe that your intention is good - to get new divers to spend more time learning to dive in the company of an instructor, to give them more time to understand the skills required (they are unlikely to perfect anything). However a course which certifies them to do more advanced diving may not be the answer... perhaps a longer OW course is.

Which leads to the issue of PADI being percieved to chase money. Perhaps both critisisms (too cheap and easy, chasing too much money) can be answered by making courses longer, more expensive, and more meaningful. An open water course that was long enough to actually teach people to dive - costs more, but the extra goes to the instructor, not to PADI for a piece of plastic.
An AOW course that actually teaches people to be advanced divers - include all the 'deep air' (I mean in a PADI context to 40m) theory and do enough diving to understand it - include nitrox, include dry suit if appropriate, and even (dare I say it) some twin tank diving with deco ceilings. I'd even include the current rescue course in this.

So we get two courses - the first is good enough for most divers who go on normal rec dives, the second caters for divers doing real advanced diving, but not upto tec stuff. Charge $500 US for each - PADIs cut goes down though, as there are only two certification cards given out.

Finally - Net Doc, no offence, as I do believe you think about diving stuff and will be a good instructor, but if any of your students 'master the skills' of boyancy, navigation or dive planning after doing OW and AOW back to back, I'll eat my BC with my fins as desert

Mike

 

[Drew Sailbum]

For what it's worth Se7en, PADI's "cut" comes mostly from producing manuals, videos, dive tables, instructional materials, etc... They do not get a percentage of the course fee.

My students are free to purchase the course materials anywhere they like so long as they get the appropriate ones. (Read as not the 1984 edition bought off EBay)

The one part of my course fee that goes directly to PADI is about $13 to process the certification and issue the c-card. The $13 covers any single PADI course except Medic First Aid (which is a few dollars cheaper due to no picture).

So whether I charge $500 or $100 for a course, PADI gets the same amount.

Presumably if Rescue Diver were rolled into an AOW course, the same course materials would be required. PADI would get $13 fewer dollars, but also wouldn't have to process as many multiple cards.

 

[daisho]

Originally posted by NetDoc
Dive Master (a professional certification) and Master Diver (a non-professional certification) have different dive requirements. I had to show 100 dives before my instructor would sign me off on Divemaster. A Master Diver certification only requires so many of the "Specialty Certs" (like Deep Diver, or NitrOx Diver) alluded to in earlier post.

My Mistake. I realize the difference but just read it backwards.

 

[Se7en]

Thanks Drew
I'd never actually investigated what cut PADI gets.

You neglect whatever fees you pay to PADI as an instructor, again I have no idea if you have to pay additional to be an instructor for some of the specialities.

However, if there were only two sets of manuals etc, and they were more comprehensive it would reduce PADIs gross income somewhat - even if these manuals were more expensive.

My point is that I'd prefer to see you charge $500 (or whatever) for a course, with PADI getting their cut once, and you being able to spend the time to teach people to dive, rather than the current system where this money is broken into a number of different courses.

I guess I know some good divers, and a few with lots of PADI badges... and these groups tend to be mutually exclusive.

Actually, I'm being to harsh on PADI the organisation - it is the industry as a whole who has caused the current scenario. Dive centres insisting on AOW to do dives to 30m, and Deep to do dives to 40m - and blindly accepting this cert rather than looking at log books and experience.

Mike

 

[dc4bs]

I guess I'm one of those lucky ones who got a great instructor from the start. He really loves diving and helping others to enjoy the sport safely.

I've been diving with him for over 6 years now and he still drills me with random questions about diving when I hang out with him. I think he'll get annoyed if I give him wrong answers so I try to avoid that... ;-)

He started out as a PADI instructor and as he is a good friend of mine now, I watch him get mad every year when he reads the updated "requirements" and they have taken out yet another item or two he feels should still be taught every OW student.

He is slowly adding TDI instructor certs as he thinks their materials are somewh at better and he want's to be able to help people get the training they should have for deeper depths than PADI will admit even exist (and that these divers are going to without any formal training anyway...).

He once had a student who took over a year to get OW certified because he just wasn't comfortable removing and clearing his mask underwater.

He spent hours in the pool with him just floating around practicing untill he could do the skills without fear or hesatation (he didn't charge him for anything except to pass on the cost of the extra air fills as he wasn't working through a shop at the time).

Oh yah... The original point I wanted to make. Even though PADI no longer requires 1 reg buddy breathing and several other skills, my friend does and he explains this to students BEFORE he'll take them on as students.

So far, he's never had a student who had an issue with this and many have said thanks for the extra training.

I've even had other instructors complement me on my basic skills during their courses. Much as I'd like to claim to be a 'natural, super perfect diver', I have to admit that it's in large part due to my initial training / instructor.

And yes I do still screw up stuff but so far not in front of him (thankfully) or because of his training (just me being a dumb-a** all on my own).

 

[The Chairman]

on the premise that the average open water diver really needs more time with the instructor, BEFORE they head out on their own. How to do this and the terminology used might differ, but we are really on the same page. Maybe requiring a diver to use a Dive Master or better until they have achieved a certain number of dives, or until they have demonstrated a certain proficiency would be good. Personally, I would love to see OW going to 6 or even 8 dives, with most of the the time in the latter dives having the instructor or DM clarifying and strengthening the skills. Maybe have a "plus" rating to indicate a deeper depth is allowed (maybe to 80ft). Requiring a "deep diver" rating for anything below 80 ft would be awesome.

I think that NAUI requiring a diver reach Master Diver status BEFORE they head on to Dive Master is a good thing. We both agree that the dive industry is fractured at best... the only thing that keeps some sanity are those over-zealous instructors that actually make you prove that you know it. I am pretty sure that some of what I went through for some of my certs was above and beyond what was required by PADI. For those instances, I am grateful.

 

[Se7en]

Originally posted by NetDoc
on the premise that the average open water diver really needs more time with the instructor, BEFORE they head out on their own.

I think that NAUI requiring a diver reach Master Diver status BEFORE they head on to Dive Master is a good thing.

I am pretty sure that some of what I went through for some of my certs was above and beyond what was required by PADI. For those instances, I am grateful.

Yep - we agree on more training being a good thing.

I'd not agree with the NAUI stance actually - however I would agree that they need to have that level of experience.

I'm currently getting all idealistic and wanting to go instruct to try and teach people to dive correctly. As I know I'd never make any money from it, I wouldn't expect to, and therefore if it takes longer, it doesn't really matter. I have spent the last 4 weekends diving with a friend who was certified a while ago, but never actually really learnt to dive, or was confident to do so. Done this before, so instructing is a natural progression I guess.

Anyway - I've done somewhere between 400 and 500 dives in all sorts of conditions, including some deeper twin tank stuff. To become an instructor already means doing Rescue and DM classes, if you added that I had to do all sorts of specialities to become a Master diver first, I'd probably give up in disgust. Surely log book evidence of experience should supercede the requirement to do a speciality course?

I was also lucky enough to do my OW course in a place and time where the instructor considered that we should be able to dive sfter this course. No pool dives - all open water (in a somewhat sheltered bay) 9 dives all up, all 45 minutes plus duration. Lots of theory - covered more than we did in the AOW.

My AOW course was a lot different however... And I didn't really appreciate being trained by someone with less knowledge and less experience than me...

Mike

 

[SDAnderson]

Here’s a news flash: new OW divers are poor OW divers! Here’s a second news flash: training requirements for OW certification have fallen over the years. Duh.

It’s a fact, but the question is, “Is this a good thing or a bad thing?” As someone who was originally OW certified in the early 1970’s under then re-certified OW in the late 1990’s, I have an unusual first hand vantage point on the changes that have occurred.

Damn PADI (and most of the other agencies, nowadays) if you will, but the realization that relaxing the standards for new divers to an absolute minimum would make the sport accessible to the general public was almost as important to the growth of the sport as the idea of combining a high-pressure step regulator with a low-pressure demand regulator.

How many of you remember the bad old days of beginner diver training? Ex-military types with an attitude, perpetually pissed off, running drill after drill, working overtime to intimidate students and desperate to show off just how much better they were than the students could ever hope to be. Stress drills where your mask would be yanked off without warning or your weight belt would be unfastened or your air would be turned off. Swimming distances that proved nothing, treading water for extended periods, and my personal favorite, how many lengths of the pool can you swim underwater while holding your breath. Hey – does this sound a little bit like today’s GUE training? If you made it through the classroom and confined water training, you got to look forward to the open water sessions. Two of the divers in my first OW dive ended up going to the hospital with injuries that they received as the result of training challenges inflicted by the instructor.

This was good for diving only if it’s your intention to keep out all but the most proficient and determined individuals. The majority of my classmates never made it to open water training, for no other reason than that the training was a miserable experience. For those with a more egalitarian view, this kind of training must be called into question.

Did the old school training make for better divers? Yes, at least for a while. Did it make for better divers in the long run? I don’t think so. In most instances, I think that 20 dives is enough to erase most differences in training standards and methods. At 100 dives I doubt there is any significant difference. Additionally, in the old days, most divers viewed training as a rite of passage to be endured and never repeated unless automatic weapons were involved. All the evidence today indicates that divers view training as a vehicle for personal growth and participate in it gladly. That’s a really positive change.

What are the effects of relaxing the standards for OW certification?

· More divers. (A good thing)
· More continuing training. (A great thing)

More divers means bigger markets means:

· More equipment manufacturers competing to develop new technologies. (A great thing.)
· More dive shops competing to provide goods and services to divers. (A great thing.)

So here’s the third (real) news flash: today’s new OW divers are “good enough.” Not great, in many instances not even good, but decidedly good enough for what they are certified to do. The numbers tell the tale – if people were getting hurt or dying by the bucket-full, the old standards would be back in a minute. Of course people get hurt, but everything I’ve read indicates that the safety record is improving along with the decline in training standards. And yes, there are idiots standing on the reef and diving to 200' on air and stealing artifacts from wrecks and bagging bugs out of season, but this has NOT changed since the bad old days – I believe that anyone that was around then will agree.

And if you still want some “serious” training, it’s definitely available. Any of the GUE courses, several of the TDI or IANTD courses, etc., etc.

Remember – if you aren’t diving often, you aren’t diving safe.

Steven

NASDS Open Water
PADI Open Water
PADI Advanced Open Water
PADI Rescue Diver
PADI EANx Diver
PADI Deep Diver
IANTD Advanced Nitrox Diver
And still learning…