Poor Students, or Poor instructors?

[Ferrara]

Common understanding here, and from memory reinforced by the PADI manuals, is that an OW diver can dive to 18m max, and an AOW can dive to 30m max. The PADI 'Deep diver' course allows you to go to 40m. So AOW does not make you a deep diver, but it does allow you to dive to depths where issues like air management and deco limits do need managing.

The PADI AOW cert. does not certify you to any depth. Recomended MAXIMUMS are given. 100ft is the max depth we can take students to in the AOW course. We stress having a personal depth limit based on many things some of which are:
experience
Buddies experience
Equipment
Environment

It is meant to be a safe INTRODUCTION to depths beyond 60ft. As aposed to the Cozumel DM who leads trusting unknowing divers with NO deep experience to these depths.

These follow the leader dives do lead divers to believe they are more qualified than they are. This is a situation that in my opinion is rampant in recreational diving. I know many novice divers, with no deep dive training at all, who think 100ft requires no additional training or experience because they do it on vacation in the Caribbean.

It's kind of like having THE TALK with your chidren before they learn it wrong on the street.

 

[Se7en]

Originally posted by Ferrara


The PADI AOW cert. does not certify you to any depth. Recomended MAXIMUMS are given. 100ft is the max depth we can take students to in the AOW course

That may certainly be the wording of the PADI manual, but the reality in the industry is that as soon as you get that AOW, boats are happy to take you to sites where you will be hitting 30m+

So it may be a defacto certification for depth, or an actual one - but it certainly exists

Mike

 

[The Chairman]

I have YET to be asked for my C-Card...

NOT YET, NOT EVEN ONCE!!!

How does the boat operator/tank filler even know that I am certified OW, much less AOW, much less NitrOx. Hell, I haven't even gotten my card from PADI for NitrOx yet. I can't fault PADI or NAUI or anybody but the boats for that!!!

OF course, actions speak louder than c-cards. You can usually tell a poser from the real thing. NOT always, but usually.

 

[fredk]

your absoulety right doc. i have travelled much of the world the last 2 years teaching and managing dive operations and have seen far to many operations now that are purely money based no respect for diver's saftey, smoke em a joint on your si they will come back for sure for more dives if their not in the chamber.

 

[Drew Sailbum]

Se7enwrote:
That may certainly be the wording of the PADI manual, but the reality in the industry is that as soon as you get that AOW, boats are happy to take you to sites where you will be hitting 30m+

So it may be a defacto certification for depth, or an actual one - but it certainly exists

Extend that logic. As soon as I got my Open Water C-Card, I could get air fills at my local dive shop. (Yep NetDoc, they actually checked! :crazyeyes: It was Wisconsin, so maybe that explains it.)

So what was to prevent me from going into caves at 160ft on air? Nothing but my training which told me that I was not trained to do that. :idea:

It is the responsibility for each diver to plan each dive and to dive his/her own plan. No one else - not even a DM on a dive boat - should plan the dive for you.

 

[Se7en]

Originally posted by Drew Sailbum

Nothing but my training which told me that I was not trained to do that. :idea:

It is the responsibility for each diver to plan each dive and to dive his/her own plan. No one else - not even a DM on a dive boat - should plan the dive for you.

Drew... I think you are pushing a hypothetical situation vs real world experience. Diving to 50m in a cave with an OW cert is a little different to divers doing dives they believe they have been trained and certified to do - such as a diver who has finished an AOW going to 30M.

(In Aus, access to caves is actually physically controlled - you can't get in there unless you are trained and a CDAA member. so that analogy is pointless. Ditto the idea of diving deep in OW - to do that you generally need to get on a boat, and boat operators tend to ask for experience or certification)

Let me ask the question a different way. As an Instructor, when you finish an AOW course, and certify your students, do you tell them;
1. They should only dive shallow until they actually learn to dive
or
2. They have now been trained to plan and execute dives to 30m.

I'm not suggesting that they let other people plan their dive for them - they make the decision and the plan, based on the fact that after as little as 9 OW dives they have been told (via being issued with certification) that they are capable of making this dive, in the company of a similarly experienced buddy.

BTW - I actually can't remember being told in training that I should keep out of caves, nor that I shouldn't exceed 30m depth. I was told that I was now trained to dive to 30m... after all, I'd copied the multilevel profile from the instructors board, and lost a game of tic tac toe at 30m.

But perhaps I was just a poor student

Mike

 

[Drew Sailbum]

Se7en,

A resounding, and definite "It depends."

When I complete an AOW, I discuss the training that the students have just been through. We talk about their strengths and weaknesses, and the limitations of their training.

Sometimes, I find a student who has 200 dives and has been diving for years, and finally decided to do an AOW (I did that too). More often, I get students straight out of BOW with only the 4 check out dives under their belt. Big difference.

As a general rule, I tell the "average" AOW student that 1) you have only been given an introduction to deep diving and there is still more to learn about being a better diver; and 2) you should dive with an experienced diver when exceeding 60ft/18m until such a time as your skills are more refined.

To some of the real rookies I strongly suggest diving with a divemaster until at least 20 dives are logged. I remind them that the best prevention against a dive accident is experience, and they do not yet have much experience.

To the old salts, I ask if they want to buddy with me on my next dive. Always need more dive buddies.

 

[Se7en]

Drew - in that case you qualify as a consciencious instructor, and I hope your students listen to you.

Mike

 

[MnLakeDiver]

most of the replies put the blame on the agincies for putting out bad instructors, I think at least some blame for bad instruction falls on the student. I ran into alot of people while shoping for an instructor and some spent more time picking out a room for a dive trip then deciding on somone to teach them how to stay alive while diving.

now you can disregard this if you want as I am newly OW cert. and have only 6 dives in my log. but if people are willing to pay for bad instruction then that is what they get.

by the way if anyone wants to dive with a newbie I dive slow, shallow and hoover alot of air but I love every minute of it.

 

[neil]

Drew.
Here's what I do: at some appropriate point in the course, I draw a skull and crossbones on the board. "Ladies and gentlemen, we are now going to discuss entering overhead environments, caves, wrecks, and under ice, without the proper training". Gets their attention every time.

Neil