pony or spare air?

[Garth]

More tanks the better.

I can't speak for anyone else but I think it would be ridiculous to chose not to carry a pony or spare air because of the possibility of extending my dives.
I think the message should be, plan your dive and use the extra gas for emergency. Redundancy is a good thing if that is what it is.
I realize people have said this before but I agree.
Also I agree with tortuga that other things are more important to buy first....

 

[halocline]

More tanks the better.

I can't speak for anyone else but I think it would be ridiculous to chose not to carry a pony or spare air because of the possibility of extending my dives.

I don't think you're seeing this from the beginner's perspective. A new diver is afraid of running out of air, so he/she decides to carry a pony. (I won't even go into the spare air debate) Here's the problem; the new diver's reason for carrying the pony is to solve a problem that simply does not exist IF the diver is following normal safe diving practices. Since it's critical to develop those skills as a new diver, and learn to rely on them, carrying a pony in that situation is, by it's very presence, impeding the new diver from developing a reliance on good buddy skills, gas management, etc....and those skills are important for all sorts of dive safety reasons that have nothing to do with running OOA.

I realize this is difficult to see from the more experienced diver's perspective. And it certainly is possible that a brand new diver could develop perfect dive safety skills while carrying a pony; it's just probably not too common. Much more common would be a new diver looking for a false sense of security by carrying a small bail-out bottle, rather than addressing head-on the issues of gas management and teamwork.

 

[doctormike]

I'm not sure that I buy the concept that a RAS would entice a new diver to do things that they otherwise wouldn't do (like push the limits of gas management). Decisions that are made by reasonable people in stable situations (like on the boat before the dive, or during normal comfortable diving) tend to be based on reasonable analysis of the situation. On the other hand, decisions that are made under stress, or in panic mode, tend to be unpredictable and bad. I consider myself reasonable experienced, but I wouldn't just assume that I would make good decisions in a bad situation.

Any one of us, even the most seasoned divers, may someday fiind ourselves in a unanticipated situation where we burn up precious time making poor decisions. Entanglement, hose failures, etc... I was amazed how quickly my tank emptied when I blew out the O-ring in my DIN adapter recently. And although we usually don't know the exact details, anyone here who reads the accident forum knows that tragedies regularly occur to people who were presumably very skilled in gas management. So to say that equipment isn't a substitute for judgement and skill is a bit of a blanket statement that doesn't always fit.

Do I stick an SMB and signalling device in my pocket on a shallow Cozumel reef if there is a current? Sure! Do I take my pony bottle to a reef in 40 feet of still water off the dock in Bonaire? No. Do I take it to a wreck off the New Jersey shore? Yup.

I guess I'm just saying that in many dive situations, a pony is a good idea. Furthermore, the more often you carry it, the more comfortable you are with it and the easier it will be to deploy if you ever do need it... And this would be true even for a new diver, IMHO.

 

[BDSC]

OTOH, no-one ever died from having too much gas

Probably not. But I have this one buddy who has too much gas and he smells like he's dead!

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

I'm not sure that I buy the concept that a RAS would entice a new diver to do things that they otherwise wouldn't do (like push the limits of gas management). Decisions that are made by reasonable people in stable situations (like on the boat before the dive, or during normal comfortable diving) tend to be based on reasonable analysis of the situation......

You are an optimist!

Think about the same new diver, 80' down with his buddies having a great dive and maybe a tiny bit narced. He blows through his air fast and not wanting to call the dive again, he then makes the decision to go a just few more minutes and go below rock bottom since he has his RAS.....

Humans make poor decisions all the time. In cyberspace or in hindsight we have 20/20 vision and can make a reasonable and logic decision. In real life, we are subjected to all sorts of internal and external pressures and we all screw things up....sooner or later.

 

[doctormike]

You are an optimist!

Think about the same new diver, 80' down with his buddies having a great dive and maybe a tiny bit narced. He blows through his air fast and not wanting to call the dive again, he then makes the decision to go a just few more minutes and go below rock bottom since he has his RAS.....

Yes, you are absolutely right... I guess we will never be able to control for everything.

However, I would say that with RAS, just like with any other piece of equipment, must come an understanding of what it is used for. So if we are postulating a diver so unteachable that he simply can't accept that the RAS is never to be used in gas planning, then he may get into trouble sooner or later no matter what we do, right? I think that the same logic would mean that he should not use a large tank, because he would be tempted to push the NDL and put him at greater risk of DCS...

Probably not. But I have this one buddy who has too much gas and he smells like he's dead!

 

[CriticalMass]

Since it's critical to develop those skills as a new diver, and learn to rely on them, carrying a pony in that situation is, by it's very presence, impeding the new diver from developing a reliance on good buddy skills, gas management, etc....and those skills are important for all sorts of dive safety reasons that have nothing to do with running OOA......... Much more common would be a new diver looking for a false sense of security by carrying a small bail-out bottle, rather than addressing head-on the issues of gas management and teamwork.

What you fail to address is the issue that is much more important to me than running out of air. I watch my tank pressure religiously, and very much doubt I'll ever face an OOA emergency. But even with regular equipment servicing as recommended by the equipment manufacturers, it's possible for things to break. If one's regulator 1st stage fails with ample air remaining in your primary tank, even your octopus will be useless. That's when you'll be glad to have a pony.

I've already decided that, for me, the "Spare Air" systems don't have enough capacity.

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

Yes, you are absolutely right... I guess we will never be able to control for everything.

However, I would say that with RAS, just like with any other piece of equipment, must come an understanding of what it is used for. So if we are postulating a diver so unteachable that he simply can't accept that the RAS is never to be used in gas planning, then he may get into trouble sooner or later no matter what we do, right? I think that the same logic would mean that he should not use a large tank, because he would be tempted to push the NDL and put him at greater risk of DCS...

Some may agree that a new diver should stay away from large tanks for just that reason, I think it is a gray area.

Extend the argument to new diver with doubles, now you have the added complexity and the extra gas. Does that make sense to you?

 

[doctormike]

Some may agree that a new diver should stay away from large tanks for just that reason, I think it is a gray area.

Extend the argument to new diver with doubles, now you have the added complexity and the extra gas. Does that make sense to you?

Absolutely, that does make sense, and I agree with you... that is one of the reasons for not diving doubles early on, IMO. I think that my phrasing made the opposite point that I was attempting to make, my bad.

By a large tank, I didn't mean doubles. Perhaps I should have said that omitting a pony bottle to remove temptation was sort of like insisting that a new diver should have to use an undersized tank to make sure that the dive was air limited rather than NDL limited.

I feel that configuring gear to remove a temptation doesn't make as much sense as teaching something like this: "Here is a pony bottle. The air in this bottle must never be affect your gas management plan, any more than the presence of a parachute should affect your flight plan or fuel loading"

Mike

 

[DaleC]

I would like to know who came up with the notion that diving beyond ESA depths without a RAS was ever a good idea in the first place. Were they the same caliber of diver that we see today? I wouldn't go into a cave with one light, depending on my buddy to have the other, hoping he changed the batteries, treated it with care and didn't go down some other tunnel while I was looking the other way. I'd just carry two lights and take my safety into my own hands. Why abandon that philosophy when it comes to air under water?

Carrying a RAS is not that difficult and learning the operating parameters is not rocket science but I will concede it is an additional task, though I would like to hear of documented cases where divers died because they carried one. But let's look at this from a different angle. We say beginners lack the ability to handle a RAS (which is only a hands on skill) but instead expect them to have the discernment nessicary to select capable and competent buddys to dive with (which is the only way the buddy system is safe at all). How do they make that decision? Truth is they usually just "trust" their buddy until they survive a close call and then they either seek a better training agency as a buddy pool or get a RAS.

Unless we dive with the same few people all the time how do we know we have a servicable buddy? Unfortunately, except for a couple of agencies, certification means virtually nothing these days. Divers are not trained to be competent within a course, they are just exposed to the concept and expected to go out and gain competency on their own. Some do - some don't; but their C cards look the same regardless.

I would say new divers are the most at risk within the buddy system because they lack competency, discernment and "need" a buddy in an unhealthy way. The A&I sub forum is full of accounts where they have paid the price for trusting in something that just wasn't there. Everytime I read a story of the new diver, seperated from the group fails to surface, panics and suffers a AGE or drowns, I wonder if a RAS would have given them the reserve gas they needed or the confidence to slow their ascent instead of panicing and bolting. I don't know if it would but it would appear the buddy system definately failed them.