pony bottles

[String]

See no problem with taking one. Its a good safety feature. Provided youre aware of its limitations regarding amount of gas and the maximum depth it'll safely bail you out from its a good safety addon.
Even if you dont run out of air other features like a freeflow, LP hose going or similar can empty a main tank very quickly - especially if it happens near the time you were going to ascend anyway. It means you dont have to trust your life to a possibly unknown and untested buddy.

So my advice, work out how long it'll last you, run it against ascent times using at least twice your normal consumtpion (stressed...) and take it.

Twinsets are big, bulky, heavy and serious overkill for shallow no-stop diving. They're also fiddly on small boats to kit up in and a real PITA for walking across rocks. Smaller twinsets need you either need to come back to shore after a dive for a fill in them or own 2 sets of twin tanks. They have their use but for gentle diving i much prefer my pony.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I want a pony bottle for several reasons. None include me breathing off it unless it's an emergency. Diving with air hogs, you tend to run into situations you wish you weren't part of. This is where a pony comes in. Say your buddy runs out of air at 80', would you rather pass off your pony and ascend, or give him your reg and breathe off your octo which doesn't have a comfy mouthpiece! I would rather give him my pony!

First stages do seize. Second stages do hose up. Gauges do freeze. If there wasn't a place for a pony, they wouldn't exist. If you want a pony for more bottom time, that's the complete wrong reason to get it. But if you want to add a false sense of safety to a dive, a pony is a good start, IMO.

I would much rather have a frantic diver run off to the surface with my pony than with me and my reg. One hurt diver is better than two. Plus, we cannot breathe water, so what's the harm is carrying a backup!

Some might be surprised at how much practice it takes some new technical diving students to get good at dropping or picking up bottles. When was the last time you handed off a bottle to another diver? When was the last time you handed one off to an OOA diver? Do you expect the person you are going to be handing this bottle off to has practiced this response to an OOA situation? I wouldn't plan on any of this working unless you've practiced it with the diver in question.

why would the OOA diver be running off to the surface with anything? In some cases the answer might just be keeping better company. LOL

 

[frankc420]

Some might be surprised at how much practice it takes some new technical diving students to get good at dropping or picking up bottles. When was the last time you handed off a bottle to another diver? When was the last time you handed one off to an OOA diver? Do you expect the person you are going to be handing this bottle off to has practiced this response to an OOA situation? I wouldn't plan on any of this working unless you've practiced it with the diver in question.

why would the OOA diver be running off to the surface with anything? In some cases the answer might just be keeping better company. LOL

Yeah well, I try to dive with a small group (currently 3 people). Skills are covered every trip, maybe breifly, but they are covered.

As for keeping better company... Sometimes you go with what you got

No, I'm not dogging my regular dive buddy. And I'm not busting his **** either. LOL

 

[fire_diver]

It is part of the gas plan, or you wouldn't be taking it. There are at least three solutions to the redundancy issue that are preferable to a pony bottle, so that can't be the reason for using one. That leaves gas management, for which it is essentially ineffective. As Jeff said, the pony is a hardware solution to a software problem.​

Here is where you're wrong. A pony should NEVER, NEVER, NEVER be part of any gas plan. It's part of an escape plan. To say it's part of a gas plan, says it's going to be used to extend bottom time. Jeff was also making a joke. Since when is a first stage failure a saftware problem? Before you claim it doesn't happen, it happened to one of our SB members a week or so ago.

My experience has been that many pony divers, especially newbies with 25 dives under their belt who find themselves OOA at 120' on a wreck dive that they aren't trained for, aren't capable of dealing with any added complexity, weight or streamlining. If they aren't capable of safely planning and executing a dive within the limits of their training, why would they decide that increasing the complexity of their next dive is going to make things better instead of worse?​

So now, anyone who wants to use a pony is too stupid to dive huh? Ever consisder that there are lots of people (especially here at SB) who do take thier training and equipment serious? How is putting a diver into a set of doubles any less a situation of "added complexity, weight or streamlining. If they aren't capable of safely planning and executing a dive within the limits of their training..."
Than a diver using a pony?

My opposition to pony bottles comes after several decades of diving and a desire to see others avoid some of the mistakes I've seen - and made. If you have a history of running out of air, no amount of extra air is going to solve your problem. Period. Divers like Ice9 need to address the root question - why are they running out of air? What is it about their skills, plan, attitude, and decision making capabilities that led them to be in a situation where they ran out of air? Adding more air to the equation only means they will be that much deeper or farther in when the run out the next time and that is not an improvement.​

If you have a history of running out of air, you deserve the cold, dark death that awaits. NOBODY is that clear enough? NOBODY has claimed they want a pony because they routinely run out of air. ICE9 related one mental FUBAR, that opened his eyes. It's not the way he, nor I, or anyone else in this thread so far, plans thier dives.

FD

 

[sbushong]

"No rule of thirds? That may be relevant when diving with a buddy as a source of redundant gas in case of gear failure at depth, although there are many cases where other gas plans are more applicable."

Not trying to throw stones, but I would love to hear the specifics of a situation where the rule of thirds is not relevant. I'm assuming that you never plan on taking any technical training.

 

[MikeFerrara]

See no problem with taking one. Its a good safety feature. Provided youre aware of its limitations regarding amount of gas and the maximum depth it'll safely bail you out from its a good safety addon.
Even if you dont run out of air other features like a freeflow, LP hose going or similar can empty a main tank very quickly - especially if it happens near the time you were going to ascend anyway. It means you dont have to trust your life to a possibly unknown and untested buddy.

So my advice, work out how long it'll last you, run it against ascent times using at least twice your normal consumtpion (stressed...) and take it.

Twinsets are big, bulky, heavy and serious overkill for shallow no-stop diving. They're also fiddly on small boats to kit up in and a real PITA for walking across rocks. Smaller twinsets need you either need to come back to shore after a dive for a fill in them or own 2 sets of twin tanks. They have their use but for gentle diving i much prefer my pony.

I've got a couple of friends who never backmount any tank. They sidemount whether diving caves or open water. They've got some pretty good arguments for it too. they can go anyplace and have two completely in supplies of the same volume by just renting an extra tank and they don't need any nonstandard equipment at all.

If you have to transport them over unfriendly ground, you take them one at a time. Getting in and out of small boats is not problem at all. they're easy to put over the side one at a time and easy to strap on in the water.

They have real redundancy by using/reserving some of each tank. The disadvantage is that you could argue that gas management is a little more complex. It's not the greates for donating gas to another diver but haldf the arguement here seems to be lousy buddies in the first place.

Also, some of the sidemount divers I know put a 7 ft hose on one tank.

 

[Double_D]

You don't check on your buddies air supply during the dive?



Wouldn't you have an indication that they are using more air than they should given where you are in the dive based on your plan?

It's the right thing to do

Oh man - "the answer" hidden in plain sight

 

[String]

Still fail to see any advantage over taking a smaller bottle if the dive is suitable.

I use twin 12s (used independently and as manifold). They're fine but they are difficult especially in a small RIB for kitting up. I dont see the point in taking that much gas and bulk on a 20m dive when i dont need it. Far easier for me to put my single 12 on then clip my 3l as a sing sling for redundancy.

Theres also the issue that twins wouldnt be allowed on a lot of RIBs here for space reasons.

 

[MikeFerrara]

"No rule of thirds? That may be relevant when diving with a buddy as a source of redundant gas in case of gear failure at depth, although there are many cases where other gas plans are more applicable."

Not trying to throw stones, but I would love to hear the specifics of a situation where the rule of thirds is not relevant. I'm assuming that you never plan on taking any technical training.

That's an easy one. Any no-stop dive where you can surface anyplace. The rule of thirds is to provide twice as much gas as needed to get back. If you don't have to get back, twice nothing is nothing.

On a dive where you can ascend any time or any place, all you need in reserve is adequate ascent gas.

On a dive where you would like to get back to the entry point but don't necessarily have to, you can just use halves (half your useable (non ascent gas) to go out and half to get back.

The rule of thirds is for when you MUST get back. In that case, it's the most liberal plan used and there are plenty of good reasons for reserving more gas.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I use twin 12s (used independently and as manifold). They're fine but they are difficult especially in a small RIB for kitting up. I dont see the point in taking that much gas and bulk on a 20m dive when i dont need it. Far easier for me to put my single 12 on then clip my 3l as a sing sling for redundancy.

The potential issue with this that I tried to point out in an earlier post is that that slung bottle is just as likely to fail as your main tank and it's more prone to loss or damage. If I sling a tank I use it first and save the back gas.

On a 20 M OW dive I don't know why I'd need anything at all. What kind of failures are we expecting?