pony bottles

[grassyknoll]

ReefRaff.
It's too bad you are sitting on the fence and are afraid to take a stand on this subject

I agree with some of what you have said but I also note that your opinions are based more on the actions and attitudes of diver using poor technique and faulty dive planning (I am waaaay too tired to do as much cut-and-paste as you did in order to counter some of what you posted), you aren't really saying why a competent diver should not (other than I will get laughed at by the "Cool" divers, who will assume I am not squared away and will then take my lunch-money and give me a wedgie).
You can say that my pony is part of my gas plan, but the funny thing is that your simply saying it doesn't make it so. Yes there are three alternatives, I imagine you would say that one is to go with independent doubles (not gonna) and the second is your buddys' gas (oops, won't work too well when soloing).
Really what I'm trying to say is that I have no intention of EVER using my pony, but, if I need it for say a complete first stage failure when diving solo, I would like to have it.

Are you telling me that there is absoloutely no way you could ever get seperated from your buddy and then experience equipment failure that would leave you without gas at depth?
If you say that there is 100% no way this could happen to you, no possibility it could happen to you, no scenario of cosmic-bad-karma-lottery winning chaos theory involved set of circumstances that could lead to this ever happening to you, then please, tell me how you have managed to remove ANY and ALL possibility of this, and you will have changed my mind.

 

[Ice9]

A pony can be viewed as something more than just your OOA protection, it is a "redundant breathing system" afterall. If you treat it only as a safety net, never calculating it into your dive plan...then what is the big risk? Its not that much extra complexity, the net weight underwater isn't significant.
...
Do you wear your seat belt when driving? You know, it will only be necessary if you are in an accident. If you prevent the accident, you don't need the seat belt.

Thats a perfect analogy!

I've noticed a tendency in some of the (few) buddies I've had, that they aren't really concerned with staying nearby or paying attention to anyone but themselves. This is probably more common on resort dives with insta-buddies. I would think that in the event something unforseeable happens (like tank debris blocking an intake, cutting off your air while your buddy is nowhere to be found), it would be nice to have another option other than CESA. This is what I'm seeing the pony as - another option.

I'm pretty confident that with practice, this wouldn't be much in the way of added complexity...

 

[SDAnderson]

I bow to your superior skills and experience.

Here I thought kowtowing was a lost art.

I wasn't my intent to launch a personal attack and my apologies if that is how it came across. You made a series of mistakes on that dive but you survived and now you're trying to learn something, which is good. Sooner or later, most of us end up on the accident analysis crucible and its an unpleasant place to be. Please don't let my arrogance or yours get in the way of the learning process.

All I hoped to do was share some experience and help you (and others) avoid adopting a technological solution that has been considered, tried, evaluated and rejected in favor of other ideas so many times before. Sorry if it came across too heavy handed, I won't belabor the point.

 

[ClayJar]

Scuba isn't supposed to be a fashionista activity but, for what it's worth, a pony bottle is seen by most serious divers as a sign of poor training and muddled thinking - not the sign of a competent, accomplished diver.

Among most serious divers *I've* encountered, a pony bottle is seen as a sign of a forward thinking diver with far more than the "usual" amount of caution, but I look forward to finding myself looked down upon for my decisions. It keeps one on one's toes.

There are at least three solutions to the redundancy issue that are preferable to a pony bottle, so that can't be the reason for using one. That leaves gas management, for which it is essentially ineffective.

Just because there are alternatives you and yours may prefer does not mean that those alternatives are preferable to me and mine. To say that redundancy cannot be my reason seems a clear sign of muddled thinking (which it may not in fact be, but that's how it seems to me), but please share your three solutions so I can understand your reasoning, whether I end up agreeing or not. At this point, I certainly do not concur that my pony is essentially ineffective.

If you have a history of running out of air, no amount of extra air is going to solve your problem. Period. Divers like Ice9 need to address the root question - why are they running out of air? What is it about their skills, plan, attitude, and decision making capabilities that led them to be in a situation where they ran out of air? Adding more air to the equation only means they will be that much deeper or farther in when the run out the next time and that is not an improvement.

What if you have no history of running out of air? Never have I run out of air. Period. My skills are well-practiced. My plans are thorough (and conservative). My attitude borders on an obsessive-compulsive dedication to safety and precision, and my decision-making capabilities have never visibly entered the equation (as the important decisions were made in the plan, and I *refuse* to violate the plan, choosing rather to call the dive, if necessary).

The *only* situation where I might need to deploy my pony is sudden scuba failure. I do not expect to ever have a gear failure at depth, as I am religious about keeping my scuba gear meticulously maintained, however, I have planned what to do in case of failure, and I have practiced enough for my emergency procedures to be second-nature. Adding more air to the equation simply means that in the unforseeable event of a failure at depth which causes me to lose or to lose access to my primary gas I can execute my end-of-dive procedures as planned. *That* is indeed an improvement.

 

[Ice9]

No sweat... I just get touchy when I reveal my dumb-side in public.

I don't disagree in any way with your suggestions regarding proper training and attitude. I clearly didn't have it that day. But I can tell you that one dive brought about some changes, thats for sure. I'm just striving for an extra option for those "just in case" moments that I hope never come...

 

[GLENFWB]

I wasn't my intent to launch a personal attack and my apologies if that is how it came across. You made a series of mistakes on that dive but you survived and now you're trying to learn something, which is good. Sooner or later, most of us end up on the accident analysis crucible and its an unpleasant place to be. Please don't let my arrogance or yours get in the way of the learning process.

As a new diver also, I would sincerely like to hear the rest of your thoughts on this. I understand the negative of using a pony bottle as a crutch for poor planning. But, what is the downside of using a pony to guard against catastrophic equipment failure at depth? As a new diver of course this is something I think about. If my only source of air is unavailable as well as my buddy...what is left? I know properly maintaned equipment and a good buddy will stop this from happening BUT what if????

Those of you who have been through all of this, PLEASE be patient with those of us with less experience who really want to hear the pros and cons to this subject.

 

[jeckyll]

Glenfwb: I guess the idea is that the new diver isn't supposed to find themselves in a situation where they _need_ a pony. I.E. at the edge of the NDL and not shallow enough to be able to CESA out of any situation where you've not only lost your buddy but _also_ lost your gas.

Likely? No. Possible ... well, see from what I hear (from people with decades of diving and thousands of dives) is that most of the divers they find dead on the bottom are wearing their weight belt. Now, ditching your weight is a pretty essential skill and should be foolproof. And yet ...

Switching to a pony should be pretty foolproof too. But here we are. And there are the divers apparently unable to get their weights off ...

Should make you think.

To me, the issue with newer divers getting more gear (and I'm pretty new myself) is that it isn't what you know. The issue is that there is so much that you're not even aware of that you don't even know what you don't know.

I ended up getting a pony (somewhere around dive 90 I think). And I've done dives in single tanks that I probably shouldn't have.

But then I didn't know what I didn't know.

I'm just in the process of putting together doubles. After all, it's what all the really cool kids are diving these days ...

Oh, and FWIW, as far as "slinging a pony DIR style" in an ealier post, I dove last weekend with some DIR divers. Discussion came to the gear and one of them looked at my pony and said
"I don't even know what to make of that".

But they let me dive with them anyways

 

[SDAnderson]

Are you telling me that there is absoloutely no way you could ever get seperated from your buddy and then experience equipment failure that would leave you without gas at depth?

Most catastrophes occur at the stinky end of a series of mistakes and failures. If you start with a conscious choice to reject many standard precautions (no buddy, no doubles or H-valve, no rule of thirds, no deeper than you can perform a CESA from, etc.) a pony bottle may be an effective necessity. If you're relying on standard precautions, a pony bottle is a frippery and that makes it a serious violation of Hogarthian principles.

Thus far, after thousands of dives, the only time I've been OOA was back in the 70's when I found my J-valve prematurely released a couple of times. I could have adopted a pony bottle but an SPG seemed like a better idea and still does. I've had first stage freeze-ups that caused regulators to freeflow, burst disks that blew out, hoses rupture and more, but so far the only thing that warrants carrying a sling bottle is a dive plan that calls for more gas than I can fit in a big set of doubles. You are, of course, correct about this much: anything could happen down there but I don't spend a lot of time worrying about being attacked by savage mer-men, either.

A little bit of fear is a good thing - it's Nature's way of motivating you to pay attention. This is the reality of pony bottles: when used by new divers, they provide a sense of security that makes the need to master skills less urgent and that tends to allow bad habits to propagate. Along with providing a marginal bit of extra air, they encourage divers to take extra risks, counter-balancing whatever safety benefit they might have. They also require a modicum of skill to handle and that task loading also interferes with a new divers focus and learning ability. Finally, for every problem that a pony bottle is supposed to solve, there is almost always a better answer and that is what divers, especially new divers, should be learning and practicing.

But, to all, Peace. Its past my bedtime and I'm turning in. I hoped to challenge some assumptions, not start a fight so be kind in my absence.

 

[tracy_from_oz]

If you want one buy one, that is my belief.

I have one, never used it outside the pool. It is just there. It is a safety plan to me and a part of my safety plan, but one that I never have had to use. I do not plan the gas into my dive.

As someone said make sure you get a reg for it, I like h20dyssey extra air system (reg), as the reg is small and also compact. You can also get a small compact gauge for it. Also make sure you get a good mounting system so it wont go anywhere and practice in the pool in regards to getting used to carrying it, how to streamline one self and weighting.

At the end of the day do not worry if people are negative towards you or your diving, it sounds like you realised your mistake, and have learnt from it. That is what life is about and you know what, I have no doubt others have learnt from your experience as well, you have helped cancel out this mistake happening to others and I see that part as a positive.

 

[ClayJar]

If you start with a conscious choice to reject many standard precautions (no buddy, no doubles or H-valve, no rule of thirds, no deeper than you can perform a CESA from, etc.) a pony bottle may be an effective necessity. If you're relying on standard precautions, a pony bottle is a frippery and that makes it a serious violation of Hogarthian principles.

Ah, that explains things. I look at it from a rather different perspective.

No buddy? Well, actually, I *do* tend to get a bit of solo diving in (thoroughly understanding the risks and choosing to accept them), but even buddy diving, I often do not have the luxury of diving with an equal. I would count one of my buddies as a reliable source of assistance (redundant gas, detangling, etc), but the rest of the time, I have to choose between diving with a marginal buddy or simply not diving.

No doubles or H-valve? I'm working on it, but I'm about $800 short of diving my first set of doubles (including BP/W and all that, too). Replacing all my valves with H-valves is something I simply can't afford, and that wouldn't help on occasions when I need to use rental tanks (not often, but it happens). A pony gives me redundancy that I can use with any tank. The fact that it's assymetric redundancy is irrelevant, as it's enough gas for my exit plan, and with the bottle in front of me, I can't do the "start the dive on your pony" boneheaded move.

No rule of thirds? That may be relevant when diving with a buddy as a source of redundant gas in case of gear failure at depth, although there are many cases where other gas plans are more applicable. Whatever specific gas plan, as long as it includes enough gas for the pair of divers on one diver's gas, that's fine -- as long as you're diving with the trusted buddy as mentioned in the first point. If I'm diving solo (a non-standard case, if you will) or with a buddy I don't trust implicitly (a case seen all too often, but unavoidable to me), gear failure falls outside the realm of gas planning.

No deeper than you can perform a CESA? That is irrelevant to my carrying a pony. I carry the pony so I don't *need* to perform a CESA. I *can* perform a CESA, but I would much rather go to my little pony and perform my standard exit procedures. Why dive with an H-valve or manifolded doubles? So you don't have to do a CESA if one air source fails unexpectedly. Why dive with a pony? The very same reason.

Incidentally, while I have no idea if you would say so, it seems that many people think symmetric redundancy is a good thing, while asymmetric redundancy is terrible. I don't think I quite understand their perspective, or perhaps they don't understand mine, but at least I can take comfort in knowing that I have redundancy (and that asymmetric redundancy is a concept that is long established in fields other than diving).