pony bottles

[Ice9]

C'mon Ice9, you’ve whetted our appetites, now won't you share the whole story? Not meaning to hijack a thread, but you’re opinions and response are shaped by an event that you've alluded to but haven't really provided a fair accounting of.
I promise, nobody will laugh or pass judgment (fingers crossed).

Ugh.. Ok here goes. Try not to laugh or judge, as I've already beat myself up real well for this one. The reader's digest version goes something like this:

The DM and I are diving a wreck in the DomRep. I reach my turn-around pressure, and tell him its time to go. He disagrees, signaling to me that he has plenty of air, and if need be, we can share. All is cool, right? No. I can't tell you why I somehow came to the conclusion that this was OK, but I did. (Please don't flame me, I understand that this is in the top 5 bad decisions I've made in my life).

So, we keep going, and of course he is all over the wreck, taking pictures with his camera. As I struggle to keep up with him, my computer goes *bleep bleep* and it wasn't long after that when I sucked ye olde tank dry (at this point it was no surprise).

Lucky, I was able to keep up with him and he did in fact have plenty of air for the both of us, and we made a normal ascent w/ safety stop. But, what if he didn't? What if something else were to happen that could complicate things? What the hell was I thinking? :shakehead

Needless to say, this is a life lesson that I'll never forget - and serves to underscore with me the need to always consider safety. On the dives since then, I enforce a strict turn-around time.

Now I don't want folks to get the wrong idea here. It seems that people are getting this idea that I'm *groping desperately* for a pony bottle. I'm not. But, after a nice run at the online poker tables, I've decided that getting a pony would probably not be a bad idea, and I'm planning on buying one. I just can't see the down-side of carrying a bailout-bottle (provided I practice with it a lot). Perhaps I need something bigger, and I'll have to consider this. Much consideration will be made before I plunk down the ton of cash its probably going to cost, believe me...

To answer another's question, I probably had no business being that deep down there in the first place, considering my lack of experience. I need to acquire a LOT more experience, which is what this coming summer will be all about.

 

[Rainer]

Thanks for the post. Lots others can learn.

 

[sambolino44]

Can we laugh and pass judgement now?

 

[Ice9]

Can we laugh and pass judgement now?

Prefer ya didn't

 

[robzr]

Congrats on starting a thread on ponys that didn't turn into completely condescending one sided argument by the anti pony crowd, you're having better luck than I (and many others) have had here. Here's a calculator I wrote that you can use to approximate air needs during an ascent:

http://cemu.org/scuba/ponycalc.php

The reason for this is because, if you search a few threads, each estimate of a ponys capacity is based on a series of assumptions which is often (drastically) different than the nexts, and you'll see estimates all over the place. You may as well make an informed decision, with parameters and safety margins you are comfortable with.

Rob

 

[ScottB]

For the vast majority of my dives over the next few years, I will be carrying a singler or pair of AL 40 side mounted.. But this is because I'll be using a rebreather =)

For my shallow recreational diving, a back mount single.. for anything else I've done to date, has been sidemount double AL80s..

 

[grassyknoll]

Ice9, thanks for sharing your experience. Wow, I can see why you are sort of kicking yourself, a planned buddy breathe is pretty b@llsy.
But I am with you on the pony, I have a AL 13 set up and slung DIR style myself. I just picked up a used steel 30 and a 40 and will set them up the same. As long as the pony isn't part of the gas plan, and you are capable of dealing with a little added complexity, weight and streamlining, I just don't see why there is a vocal anti-pony crowd. I mean, I may end up sorry I am lugging it around with me, but that is much preferable to the poor SOB who ends up sorry he isn't.

 

[SDAnderson]

I have a AL 13 set up and slung DIR style myself.

What - mounted upside down on your doubles? I know what you were trying to say and I'm not a hardcore DIR proponent but don't fool yourself into thinking that there is anyway you can sling a 13cf pony bottle and call it DIR style. Scuba isn't supposed to be a fashionista activity but, for what it's worth, a pony bottle is seen by most serious divers as a sign of poor training and muddled thinking - not the sign of a competent, accomplished diver.​

As long as the pony isn't part of the gas plan,

It is part of the gas plan, or you wouldn't be taking it. There are at least three solutions to the redundancy issue that are preferable to a pony bottle, so that can't be the reason for using one. That leaves gas management, for which it is essentially ineffective. As Jeff said, the pony is a hardware solution to a software problem.​

and you are capable of dealing with a little added complexity, weight and streamlining,

My experience has been that many pony divers, especially newbies with 25 dives under their belt who find themselves OOA at 120' on a wreck dive that they aren't trained for, aren't capable of dealing with any added complexity, weight or streamlining. If they aren't capable of safely planning and executing a dive within the limits of their training, why would they decide that increasing the complexity of their next dive is going to make things better instead of worse?​

I just don't see why there is a vocal anti-pony crowd. I mean, I may end up sorry I am lugging it around with me, but that is much preferable to the poor SOB who ends up sorry he isn't.

My opposition to pony bottles comes after several decades of diving and a desire to see others avoid some of the mistakes I've seen - and made. If you have a history of running out of air, no amount of extra air is going to solve your problem. Period. Divers like Ice9 need to address the root question - why are they running out of air? What is it about their skills, plan, attitude, and decision making capabilities that led them to be in a situation where they ran out of air? Adding more air to the equation only means they will be that much deeper or farther in when the run out the next time and that is not an improvement.​

 

[PriusDrIVER]

A pony can be viewed as something more than just your OOA protection, it is a "redundant breathing system" afterall. If you treat it only as a safety net, never calculating it into your dive plan...then what is the big risk? Its not that much extra complexity, the net weight underwater isn't significant. Perhaps if diving doubles, a 13-19cf pony isn't worth the complexity...but then you may be carrying a 30 or 40 for staging or deco.

Do you wear your seat belt when driving? You know, it will only be necessary if you are in an accident. If you prevent the accident, you don't need the seat belt.

 

[Ice9]

Divers like Ice9 need to address the root question - why are they running out of air? What is it about their skills, plan, attitude, and decision making capabilities that led them to be in a situation where they ran out of air? Adding more air to the equation only means they will be that much deeper or farther in when the run out the next time and that is not an improvement.

Reef, you come across as very arrogant. I bow to your superior skills and experience. There. Feel better?

Now if you would climb down off your high horse, and re-read my post, you would find that my decision-making capabilities have already been addressed. Remember, this has only happened once, and I don't intend it to happen again. As far as my "attitude" goes, you do not know me, so kindly refrain from making judgements that are not solicited.