pony bottles

[Xanthro]

Plan for worse case scenario. Theres a current, vis is low, you get buddy separated say 35 mins into a dive.

I can control my gear within reason, what I can't control is what another person does. Even with a great buddy if you suffer a OOA situation because of equipment failure, you are putting your life into another's hand. What if at that moment, the otherwise always available buddy has seen something amazing and drifted off?

Having two massive hardware failures on redundant gear is very very unlikely.

Like you, I say plan for the worse, because it often seems that when you don't is when the worse happens.

 

[Soggy]

If you dive low viz then the only person you can count on in an emergency is yourself

That's an utter load of crap.

 

[Soggy]

Thats not what my buddy is there for!!!! Cold water, two breathing thru the same first stage, not a good idea!!!!

First stage freezes are exceedingly rare. Freeflows are normally caused by 2nd stage failures.

 

[String]

First stage freezes are rare but not unheard of. In colder water a 2nd stage freezing can lead to a first stage also freezing. *ALL* equipment failiures are rare. That doesnt mean they wont happen.

In any vis in any condition i like to give myself control over my own life and not blindly rely on someone else who may or may not be there, may or may not be up to the take and may or may not be totally reliable under pressure. A redundant air source (suitable for the depth in question) gives an individual control over his own situation without relying on someone else. Thats never a bad thing.

 

[Soggy]

First stage freezes are rare but not unheard of. In colder water a 2nd stage freezing can lead to a first stage also freezing. *ALL* equipment failiures are rare. That doesnt mean they wont happen.

Yes, they can happen, though I've done plenty of air sharing drills in water 30sand have never had a first stage freeze.... If you are diving in conditions where you are far enough from the surface that you cannot do a direct ascent and you are in such poor vis that you can't see your buddy who has somehow just disappeared in a wicked current, and your lights are so poor that you can't see the glow from your buddy in that terrible vis you should either be diving doubles or not doing the dive at all.

In any vis in any condition i like to give myself control over my own life and not blindly rely on someone else who may or may not be there, may or may not be up to the take and may or may not be totally reliable under pressure.

The words blindly rely prove the point that you have never dived in a squared away team. Once you have, you'll understand that a good teammate *will* be there. Of course, to be in a squared away team, you need to be a squared away teammate. It is a discipline that many are not either cut out for or simply choose not to undertake.

A redundant air source (suitable for the depth in question) gives an individual control over his own situation without relying on someone else. Thats never a bad thing.

Obviously there are circumstances where redundancy is necessary. I dive doubles on pretty much anything below 60-80 ft in cold water, which is pretty much everything these days. I haven't had a single tank on in several months.

The issues with pony bottles are numerous.....If you store them parked and off, you need to find, deploy, turn on, and clear the reg...all while you are freaking out because your regulator just blew up in your face or your just took your last breath. If you store it deployed and turned on, you might very well go to grab the reg and not have anything there, because unbeknownst to you, the reg has been leaking the entire dive and dumped your 20cft of 'redundancy' out. Additionally, if you are at all trained to dive with high-O2 deco mixes, the whole concept of fumbling around blindly for a reg and breathing it should seem absurd. It engrains habits that need to be 'forgotten' when you are carrying a deco mix. With doubles, the reaction is always the same....problem with the reg I'm breathing? Switch to the one on my neck, shutdown the post, notify buddy.

Once you've come to the conclusion that you need redundancy, the best option is doubles with a squared away dive team.

 

[Curt Bowen]

First stage freezes are rare but not unheard of. In colder water a 2nd stage freezing can lead to a first stage also freezing. *ALL* equipment failiures are rare. That doesnt mean they wont happen.

In any vis in any condition i like to give myself control over my own life and not blindly rely on someone else who may or may not be there, may or may not be up to the take and may or may not be totally reliable under pressure. A redundant air source (suitable for the depth in question) gives an individual control over his own situation without relying on someone else. Thats never a bad thing.

You should never rely on a buddy for emergency assistance, always carry a complete alternate air supply be it either a pony or for shallow recreational dives, even a spare air will work.

If a problem should arrise and your buddy is there to assist, so be it, but if not, then you can assist yourself.

It is nice to have a dive buddy, but I never count on him/her for assistance.

 

[Soggy]

It's obvious on this board and out on the boats that there are two philosophies of diving that appear completely diametrically opposed and neither can understand what the other side doesn't 'get'. To me, it is completely obvious how diving with a trained team doesn't equal dependence or reliance. It is quite the opposite, each teammate must be self-sufficient to the point of being able to assist the other teammate. Generally people who don't understand team diving or are huge proponents of solo diving as being truly safer are not confident in their own ability to assist another diver.

 

[JeffG]

Generally people who don't understand team diving or are huge proponents of solo diving as being truly safer are not confident in their own ability to assist another diver.

or they see Team diving as hindering them from doing the dives that they would like to do. The "weakness" of team diving is that you are only as strong as the weakest member. Now, the DIR (or other team focused group) solution is to keep training the team, but perhaps the solo-diver types see that as a PITA.

 

[Curt Bowen]

It's obvious on this board and out on the boats that there are two philosophies of diving that appear completely diametrically opposed and neither can understand what the other side doesn't 'get'. To me, it is completely obvious how diving with a trained team doesn't equal dependence or reliance. It is quite the opposite, each teammate must be self-sufficient to the point of being able to assist the other teammate. Generally people who don't understand team diving or are huge proponents of solo diving as being truly safer are not confident in their own ability to assist another diver.

Many times during a dive, it is almost impossible for a buddy to assist or be assisted within a limited time period. This is when it is of utmost importance for the diver to assist themselves if an emergency should arrise.

Example:

Wreck penitration through tight hatches and doorways seperates any team member for x amount of time.

Poor visibility within wrecks or caves can easily seperate all team members making assistance impossible.

It has zero to do with proper team training, it has all to do with the environment and dive conditions you find yourself in.

I will continue to carry and rely soley on my own bailout and suggest other do also.

As a matter at fact, when I used to teach openwater divers, I required each to carry thier own bailout.

As for my ability to assist other divers, I do not feel I would have any problems if I needed to assist anyone from any condition.

 

[Soggy]

Many times during a dive, it is almost impossible for a buddy to assist or be assisted within a limited time period. This is when it is of utmost importance for the diver to assist themselves if an emergency should arrise.

Again, this is the whole "If you're diving in a team, you cannot be self-sufficient" fallacious argument. Self-sufficiency is extremely important in a team environment. If you aren't self-sufficient, how can you possibly be able to help another?!

Wreck penitration through tight hatches and doorways seperates any team member for x amount of time.

Agreed...you should be trained and have doubles if you are in that situation. That is why overhead environments require doubles.

Poor visibility within wrecks or caves can easily seperate all team members making assistance impossible.

That's what touch contact is for. If somehow you find yourself in a siltout and don't know where your buddy is, you again...have redundancy in the form of doubles, not some dinky little pony bottle.

No one is ever going to argue that overhead environments, soft or hard, don't require redundancy.

As for my ability to assist other divers, I do not feel I would have any problems if I needed to assist anyone from any condition.

You can assist anyone from any condition, but your teammates couldn't do the same for you? That is what teamwork is about.