Pony Bottle, worth it?

[mproekt1]

@GrumpyOldGuy

I totally agree with your point and have nothing to add to it, accept may by that your comment does not apply to my post. The point I was making is that I'd rather give my pony to a distressed diver then sharing my air. It has nothing to do with planning or training. I don't believe in buddy system, I don't trust diver next to me, I always dive as if i dive solo.

 

[tomfcrist]

So, when you are diving with these operators do you make it clear to everyone onboard (but especially your "buddy") that should anyone have an OOA issue you have no intention of sharing YOUR air with them?

When did i say that I had no intention of giving them air?

And at what point do you tell them?

During the briefing?

Or underwater?

Do you wait for a fellow diver to have an emergency first? Then, when they follow their training and grab for your octo (assuming you have one of course)

Is that the point you refuse to help them?

I explain what I will do during the predive with my "buddy". And OBTW, I'm pretty sure that their training doesnt tell them to grab at anything(especially my gear). Fairly sure training goes something like this: Signal OOA, I give octo to OOA Diver, OK? OK, GO UP? GO UP, etc.

No hate. It was an honest question.

And the question was brought from the earlier statement that the diver in question will NOT share air with his buddy.

Show me one post where i stated that I WILL NOT share air with another diver. Did i not explain that i would give them a pony? Thats 40cuft of MY air that Im giving to them, and by doing it that way I am not physically attached to a paniced diver.....sounds pretty safe to me.

I read his post to mean that he would share air, but his preference was to donate his pony, rather than use the AAS.

Correct.

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

@GrumpyOldGuy

I totally agree with your point and have nothing to add to it, accept may by that your comment does not apply to my post. The point I was making is that I'd rather give my pony to a distressed diver then sharing my air. It has nothing to do with planning or training. I don't believe in buddy system, I don't trust diver next to me, I always dive as if i dive solo.

My buddies (when I am not solo) are typically either my sons or a friends, so although I always have a self-rescue plan, I do feel a heavy responsibility to make sure the buddy system remains viable.

Handing off a pony to an OOG buddy is simple and safe for the donor, no doubt about it. However, it transfers a lot of task loading to the victim who already screwed the pooch
- Is the pony turned ON? The victim may not realize it is off and try to suck air without success and go into a full panic
- Is the victim capable of holding the pony and managing his buoyancy to prevent a rapid ascent?
- Is the victim capable of managing the relatively small gas resource on the pony tank, know where the SPG is, etc...? Or will he run OOG 2x on the same dive?
- Once on the surface, separated since we are not connected, is he/she going to manually inflate their BC or at least drop weights? (The pony is probably negative with a reg attached)

Based on these issues, I would rather donate my long hose and remain in control of both of our ascents. If I see gas is depleting faster than expected, I would then use my own pony as a supplemental resource. The exception would be true cold water dives (<45F or so) where free flow is a real possibility in which I would switch to my pony ASAP.

 

[DevonDiver]

Fairly sure training goes something like this: Signal OOA, I give octo to OOA Diver, OK? OK, GO UP? GO UP, etc.

In a PADI OW class, it goes like this:

From the PADI OW Manual 2011:

Respond to air depletion by signaling “out of air,” and securing and breathing from an alternate air source supplied by a buddy.

This places the responsibility on the OOA diver to signal, then secure the AAS. Add the stress of a real life incident to the mix and it can pretty quickly end up as a 'grab'.

Actual pro-active 'donation' of an AAS is not covered until the Rescue Diver course... at which stage, the diver was deemed to be sufficiently capable of taking a leadership role within an OOA incident...

From the PADI Rescue Diver Instructor Manual 2011:

3. Correctly identify and provide air to, via an alternate air source, a diver simulating an out-of-air emergency, and make a controlled air-sharing ascent

 

[tomfcrist]

@devondiver, If you come up to me panicking and rip a reg off my body you better calm down REAL FAST. Because once you are attached to me if you are freaking out, i will let you drown.

Nice read on the PADI standards, good info which reaffirms why i dont teach for PADI.

Quite honestly we are debating a rediculous point.....all of this assumes that a diver follows thier training. If they were following thier training they wouldn't be OOA to begin with. They MIGHT get into a LOA situation, in which case they usually aren't panicking, and can readily clip on the pony that i hand to them and breathe from it.

 

[DandyDon]

My buddies (when I am not solo) are typically either my sons or a friends, so although I always have a self-rescue plan, I do feel a heavy responsibility to make sure the buddy system remains viable.

Handing off a pony to an OOG buddy is simple and safe for the donor, no doubt about it. However, it transfers a lot of task loading to the victim who already screwed the pooch
- Is the pony turned ON? The victim may not realize it is off and try to suck air without success and go into a full panic
- Is the victim capable of holding the pony and managing his buoyancy to prevent a rapid ascent?
- Is the victim capable of managing the relatively small gas resource on the pony tank, know where the SPG is, etc...? Or will he run OOG 2x on the same dive?
- Once on the surface, separated since we are not connected, is he/she going to manually inflate their BC or at least drop weights? (The pony is probably negative with a reg attached)

Based on these issues, I would rather donate my long hose and remain in control of both of our ascents. If I see gas is depleting faster than expected, I would then use my own pony as a supplemental resource. The exception would be true cold water dives (<45F or so) where free flow is a real possibility in which I would switch to my pony ASAP.

Good reasoning.

I just keep mine on and try to let others on the boat know: If you need air, grab the reg, bite it, purge it, breath it, and I will understand - then we'll ascend together. DO NOT GRAB THE ONE IN MY MOUTH AS IT'S A MANTA AND WON'T COME OUT, plus I don't want to lose my dentures. They may still grab it but I try to pass that word. If they grab my alternate second stage, fine - I'll switch to my pony.

I really do not want us both sucking my back gas ever. That's why I carry the pony.

Additionally, I don't trust the OOA diver to board the boat without dropping my pony, or be willing and able to pay for it if he does. Too much of a cynic here.​

@devondiver, If you come up to me panicking and rip a reg off my body you better calm down REAL FAST. Because once you are attached to me if you are freaking out, i will let you drown.

:shocked2: Thanks for the warning.

 

[tomfcrist]

:shocked2: Thanks for the warning.

You are welcome. It shouldnt suprise anyone that I'm not willing to get myself killed because someone else is a piss poor diver.

 

[DandyDon]

You are welcome. It shouldnt suprise anyone that I'm not willing to get myself killed because someone else is a piss poor diver.

Okee dokee. I'll try to save the guy, regardless.

 

[tomfcrist]

Okee dokee. I'll try to save the guy, regardless.

I will too.....But not at the expense of my own life. If my life becomes threatened because of the actions of the OOA diver, I'll wait till he's unconsious and then bring him to the surface where I can try to save him again.

 

[mproekt1]

My buddies (when I am not solo) are typically either my sons or a friends, so although I always have a self-rescue plan, I do feel a heavy responsibility to make sure the buddy system remains viable.

Handing off a pony to an OOG buddy is simple and safe for the donor, no doubt about it. However, it transfers a lot of task loading to the victim who already screwed the pooch
- Is the pony turned ON? The victim may not realize it is off and try to suck air without success and go into a full panic
- Is the victim capable of holding the pony and managing his buoyancy to prevent a rapid ascent?
- Is the victim capable of managing the relatively small gas resource on the pony tank, know where the SPG is, etc...? Or will he run OOG 2x on the same dive?
- Once on the surface, separated since we are not connected, is he/she going to manually inflate their BC or at least drop weights? (The pony is probably negative with a reg attached)

Based on these issues, I would rather donate my long hose and remain in control of both of our ascents. If I see gas is depleting faster than expected, I would then use my own pony as a supplemental resource. The exception would be true cold water dives (<45F or so) where free flow is a real possibility in which I would switch to my pony ASAP.

Of course you have to take a heavy responsibility for your buddy if you buddy is your son. I also have heavy responsibility before my daughters to come back home alive. This is why I plan my dives and I dive my plans. This is why I continuously train, maintain my gear, and do a lot of other responsible things that ALL responsible divers should be doing. What would be your response if your buddy happen to be just another diver on a boat that you don't know? You must assume that he\she is certified and has some rudimentary planning skills and if not, how is it your responsibility? By donating my pony I'm giving that diver a very very good chance to survive. A very good chance...