Pony Bottle, worth it?

[tomfcrist]

Pony bottles are around for a reason, they are a good tool to have on deep dives. My take on it is this, I dive deep quite often....Usually carry between 120-160 cuft of back gas, and alot of the time with an insta-buddy. I am not going to run out of gas(air sipper). However, if I have a catostrophic failure, I still have a pony to fall back on for my ascent. Also, if my insta buddy hoovers through all his gas and ends up either OOA or LOA, i really dont want to be tethered to him by sharing MY air with him. I can however unclip my 40cu ft pony and give it to him while we make our ascent. Im not a big fan of being attached to a panicked(usually are when they just went OOA at 120ft) diver.

What really suprised me about this thread is that the "why dive a pony when you can use an H-valve or use doubles" crowd hasnt chimed in at all.

 

[DandyDon]

My comment indicates some concern over my options on OOA. That brings up a related question. How many multiple redundancies are necessary? My buddy had a pony so between us we had 3 independent RAS. If I had my pony it would be 4. Maybe I should carry 2 pony bottles. You mentioned needing 2 spare tires on a desert trip. Maybe you should. Sorry if this sounds confrontational. I don't mean it as such. Because of this I can understand how some people consider a pony unnecessary. For me personally, I think I should just try to always carry the pony as you suggest. It could be inconvenient when taking pictures. The risk of entaglement is all the lanyards you are carrying; sling bottle, camera lanyard, light lanyard; where's my knife? Do you think it can add to multiple task loading and lead to problems?

If you dive with a pony, you're done more than the vast majority of others will do for safety huh? Yeah, nice that your bud has his - if you act like a remora and stick with him. Two ponies would be a bit much, as would two spare tires in the desert. Many new cars sold today don't come with spare tires. If I had one of those, I'd get one (and I may replace the mini spare that came with the car I got this month with a real one), but it does come down to numbers, and reasonable efforts. One spare tire is a lot more than none; 2 tank & reg systems is twice as much as one; and as much trouble as a pony is - no one is going to carry 2 on a rec dive.

As far as task challenging, nah. My pony is never in the way on a dive, and the last time I used it on a bailout (I still give my home bud grief over that dive ), I set my camera free to float at the end of that lanyard so I could deal pony and dive computer - no problem.

 

[ClayJar]

I've never dived a pony bottle and said, "Damn, I wish I didn't bring this with me", nor have I heard anyone say something similar.

I *have* heard divers say that, or to be more forthright, I have heard divers say they said that and therefore no longer dive/own a pony. I've heard them say that it was inconvenient to dive the pony. It's purely anecdotal, but in every case among those I know personally, every single one said they didn't like how the pony adversely affected their stability and made them "turtle". Of course, that is a direct result of mounting additional weight above you (behind, if you're vertical); if they had their pony sling-style, it would actually *increase* dynamic stability, but none of them tried that, as they'd already decided to scrap the pony.

As for me, I have plenty of dives with my 19cf pony (including flying with it, as I will do again in less than two weeks), and I have never had a dive where I wished I didn't bring it. If I'm in very shallow water, such as a 17-foot-max (barring a shovel) shark tooth dive, I don't wear it, but outside those rare exceptions, it's always on me. I may never need to use it -- gear and other external problems are very rare, and I'm *NOT* going to just "run out of air" -- but to me in my personal experience, it's utterly trivial to carry along on the dives. Sure, it's a bit more weight in the luggage or being carried to and from boats, but that's utterly irrelevant.

It seems that solo dives and low-quality buddies get all the press when it comes to ponies (and I've certainly logged both), but I threw in another reason for *me* to dive a pony. When I'm leading divers (or even diving with students), should I have an unlikely problem, I have no doubts whatsoever that I could swim up to any of them and share air for the ascent. On the other hand, if that were to happen, my ability to handle any additional situations would be very significantly reduced. If I have an issue but have my (sufficiently-sized) pony, although it's certainly thumb-the-dive time, my capabilities during the return and ascent are effectively preserved.

Now, anyone is free to believe that I have seen one too many "Engineering Disasters" episodes of Modern Marvels, but the way *I* choose to see it is that any significant event underwater is going to involve a chain of failures. A single problem in isolation is not sufficient to cause an accident (note: forgotten or never-had training can be one of the chain of failures, of course). If adding minimal inconvenience to my diving is all it takes to add one more level to the required chain of failures that would have to be present in order to be in deep, it doesn't bother me at all.

I carry a lift bag for light salvage and backup buoyancy, even though I've never had a buoyancy failure (although I have come up with more than a few lost anchors, hehe). I carry multiple cutting tools in case of entanglements, even though I've never been held fast. I carry two or more lights, even though I've never had a flood during a dive. I carry a backup mask, even though I've never lost mine. I carry a big surface marker, even though I've never been adrift at sea. I carry a pony even though I've never had a gas supply failure on a dive. Every single piece of this is "unnecessary" redundancy, and it may not make sense to someone else, but none of it bothers *me*. Can I tell someone else that any of it is "worth it"? No, I really can't. I can only say why *I* dive with it.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I bought a 30 cft back in '07; have used it on one "real" dive. It was "mental safety" until the return to shore; then it was "travel gas."

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/hawaii-ohana/204383-carthaginian-shore-2.html

(photo gallery moved - Carthaginian 007 - halemano's Photos | SmugMug)

Bought it at a yard sale for $40; recent hydro and VIP w/ 32% fill. My maintenence costs have been 4 VIP's and an upcoming hydro. Bought a couple 120 cft's in '09; probably should sell the 30.

I have made thousands of dives, with hundreds of (if not over a thousand) solo dives. No catastrophic loss of gas events or SPG failures, ever; and only rumors of any within hundreds of miles and hundreds of thousands of dives.

My "conservative math" puts the odds of need for redundancy where I splash at less than .1%; the actual math is more likely less than .01% (1 in more than 10,000 dives). And that does not even factor in my probably greater than typical self rescue abilities (<.001% ).

The kind of catastrophic event that is likely to take me out on a dive is not going to be prevented by having a pony, and might even be more likely if I have one.

 

[Dr Wu]

... if my insta buddy hoovers through all his gas and ends up either OOA or LOA, i really dont want to be tethered to him by sharing MY air with him....

Your air?

Ok, so you dive solo. That's fine, I do as well.

But, if that's the case, what is the "buddy" for?

 

[DevonDiver]

Ok, so you dive solo. That's fine, I do as well.

But, if that's the case, what is the "buddy" for?

Some people have friends....

 

[tomfcrist]

Your air?

Ok, so you dive solo. That's fine, I do as well.

But, if that's the case, what is the "buddy" for?

Yes, MY air. I Filled that tank and its attached to my back so that I can breathe underwater....I think that makes it mine.

The Buddy is there because on a Recreational dive trip most (if not all) dive operators in my area require you to dive with a "buddy". Rediculous if you ask me, but sensable for the general population given the lack of self sufficiency of quite a few divers these days.

 

[Hatul]

Pony bottles are around for a reason, they are a good tool to have on deep dives. My take on it is this, I dive deep quite often....Usually carry between 120-160 cuft of back gas, and alot of the time with an insta-buddy. I am not going to run out of gas(air sipper). However, if I have a catostrophic failure, I still have a pony to fall back on for my ascent. Also, if my insta buddy hoovers through all his gas and ends up either OOA or LOA, i really dont want to be tethered to him by sharing MY air with him. I can however unclip my 40cu ft pony and give it to him while we make our ascent. Im not a big fan of being attached to a panicked(usually are when they just went OOA at 120ft) diver.

What really suprised me about this thread is that the "why dive a pony when you can use an H-valve or use doubles" crowd hasnt chimed in at all.

The problem with passing your pony to another diver is you lose ballast so to make up you have to carry extra weight with you all the time. So for that rare chance you have to hand off your pony you end up diving overweighted all the time.

Adam

 

[bj139]

I had a massive freeflow several months ago due to crud in the first stage. After this, I came to realize regs freeflow instead of fail closed. If I keep track of my pressure I should always have air to breathe from my main tank. Because of this, a pony is not necessary and I understand people who are adamant about not having one. Still, I feel safer having a redundant air supply whether it is a pony or a reliable buddy. If I did not have a pony and my buddy disappeared into the distance I would get shallow to make sure I could do a CESA. The few times I was with a buddy that was farther away than the surface I did look to see where the closest place I could get a backup breath, my buddy or the surface.

 

[ClayJar]

The problem with passing your pony to another diver is you lose ballast so to make up you have to carry extra weight with you all the time. So for that rare chance you have to hand off your pony you end up diving overweighted all the time.

Actually, at least the way I dive, that's not the case at all. My AL19 with a reg is not very negative. I haven't weighed it underwater with the reg set and everything, but it's on the order of two or three pounds negative, I'd suppose. If another diver had a breathing gas issue sufficient to cause me to hand off my pony to them, what would happen? What's the *worst-case scenario*?

Well, assuming I've just handed off my pony *and* I'm low on air (far below my usual limits, as I've just used that air to intervene with the diver I've just handed the pony to), I'm now going to arrive at my shallow stop a few pounds light. Not only that, but I'll also... um... well, come to think of it, *yes*, only that. I'll be a few pounds light and if I have no anchor line or other something to hold on to, I'll have to point myself down a bit and do a swimming-in-place stop. I suppose it really *isn't* a big deal, after all -- a slightly buoyant swimming-in-place safety stop is just an inconvenience!

Of course, that's the worst-case scenario. If this happened while my tank *isn't* almost empty, that weight of the gas in my tank is going to make it even easier. (If I've got at least half an AL80 left, perhaps because the diver's reg exploded right near the beginning of the dive, I can still be neutral ending the dive even without the three-pounds-negative pony.)

A pony bottle is a bit like an automotive airbag. It's something you carry that you may never use, but if/when you *do* use it, you're not going to be looking for *convenience* or *comfort*. If you have to put your pony to use (for yourself or someone else), it *will* be a bit inconvenient, but that should be expected. If you hand it off, you may have have to deal with being just a bit buoyant at the end of that one dive, but as long as that's No Big Deal, I can see no legitimate reason to try to optimize your diving for that situation.

(Note: If you've never had to do a slightly-buoyant swimming-in-place safety stop, I highly recommend you add that to your list of things to try. Get neutral at your safety stop at the end of a short/shallow/*conservative* [do I really need the full set of disclaimers here? don't be stupid :biggrin:] dive, then hand off something like a three-pound weight to your buddy. Do not use your BC to adjust your buoyancy, and watch your depth and time while you hold the safety stop for three/five/whatever minutes before you take your weight back and end the dive. You should find that it's a bit annoying, but you're perfectly capable of maintaining that small amount of effort for the length of the stop. I'd recommend doing this where you have a line to grab as well, because why not. I also find handing off a weight to be a more useful learning exercise than just adding air to your BC, as you'll know precisely how positive you are.)