Pony Bottle / Stage Bottle / Decompression Bottle. What's the difference?

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Hey Gang:

I've followed @tbone1004's discussions regarding not liking pony bottles for a while. At times I've been a little confused and it took me a couple of times reading his post above, but I think I finally get where he's coming from. Tom, correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm understanding correctly, your concern is that a diver with a single tank has a primary plus an octopus. Then, they have a separate pony bottle with a regulator attached. So now, there are three second stages for two tanks. It's the octopus that's the big issue, yes? In an emergency, a diver could be grabbing for the wrong second stage and I do see where that could be a problem.

Yes I believe that’s his concern but it’s not a problem. If I have an emergency and my gas somehow stops flowing, I deploy my pony 2nd stage. If a buddy or some random stranger comes to me for air I donate my primary and switch to the 2nd stage under my chine. How is any of that a problem?
 
He is however a technical diver and it was shared on the TDI community blog. If that doesn't qualify as an opinion from within the technical community I'm not sure what does.

Hi Jim,

Your points on this topic are right on. Tbone is really an incredible resource and probably one hell of a diver and instructor. On this topic, he is literally beating a dead horse right into the ground. His opinion is valid for him and I think we all respect that. I happen to be a certified technical diver. Only a fool or insane person would think of me as a viable candidate to be his/her buddy on a real technical dive. I don't have the experience or higher level training. My opinion happens to be just as valid as yours or anyone else's. Again, I completely agree with you on this topic.

You're also assuming that saying "pony bottle" somehow by default means an inadequately sized cylinder.(, for overhead or staged decompression dives. [added by MM])

I think you need to add this subordinate clause to your quoted statement directly above: "...for overhead or staged decompression dives." I believe, subconsciously, that's what these people are thinking -- it is rote, it is muscle memory, it is a subconscious reaction. I feel some have trouble switching mentally back and forth between purely benign recreational diving and real diving in the technical realm.

This topic always seems to come down to a recreational diver arguing that a 13cf, a 19cf, or a 30cf bottle is adequate while the tech diver is arguing that a 19cf bottle is to small in case you get stuck "in an overhead or virtual overhead environment."

The belief that a pony bottle is not proper redundancy FOR RECREATIONAL diving is where we disagree. There are plenty of technical divers and instructors who agree with me. There are also plenty who agree with you. This is why I stated it’s a philosophical disagreement and the technical community does not speak with one voice on this.

I totally agree with that.

Lastly the topic of the number of 2nd stages on the back mounted 1st stage. We've gone back and forth on that on other threads. Not going there again. Anyone can see the other recent pony threads for discussions on that topic.

I agree again. I don't give a crap whether, while on my dive to the Spiegel Grove last week, another diver removed his/her octo and slung a pony. Or, he/she kept the octo and also slung a pony. Dive and Let Dive! It is not worth arguing over!

Tbone did mention that recreational divers can perform a CESA in the recreational realm. Not me! Last week I did not use redundancy on Molasses Reef. From 35 feet a CESA is within my capability. A CESA from 100 feet is not. It is beyond my comfort level.

cheers,
m²V2
 
Sorry, I do not follow you here: so, if I remove one of the regs I usually employ on my main tank, so that there is only one primary on it, you are happy. If instead I leave the standard two regs on the main tank (plus the third one on the pony), you are unhappy?
Can you elaborate how REMOVING a reg can be safer?
How can I make use of my back gas if the primary fails and there is no secondary reg on its second post?
Please distinguish between first stages and second stages. Just saying "reg" is unclear.
 
@RyanT and @Angelo Farina correct. The issue is with multiple second stages. It leads to potential confusion in the system and is carrying extra equipment that doesn't need to be there. Goes against KISS and all of the original thoughts being hogarthian configurations where you only take what is necessary and valuable. The extra second stage is not necessary and only brings confusion.
Nothing that I have said has anything to do with overhead or simulated overhead environments, though I do consider wreck diving in anything resembling high current to be overhead diving with regards to planning. If you are on the stern of a wreck and run out of gas, but the anchor line is at the bow, you need to get back to the bow before you can make that ascent or a boat is going to be chasing you later on and you'll have a very grumpy crew.
The horse is sufficiently beaten.
 
You missed one, the bail out bottle, or bottles. Rebreather divers use this in the event of a rebreather failure. End dive, go home. To an extent they are more like a pony bottle where they are brought on a dive without the intention of using them on the dive. Just a backup plan. But you have to plan enough to finish the dive. Since the dives may involve depth and deco, adequate gasses and enough of those gasses.

Unlike a stage (deco) bottle where it is intended to be used during the dive.
 
That is different than "2 second stages on your backgas".

See, this is why I'm glad I'm a rec diver. The tec gobbledygook just leaves me mystified. "Backgas?" I misread that as "back ass," and then I was confused because I thought that's where everyone has theirs. Except, I guess, in the Pub.
 
Please distinguish between first stages and second stages. Just saying "reg" is unclear.
One "reg" is a first stage plus a second stage. I call an additional second stage only an "octo", not a reg.
All my regs are the same (SP MK5+109). The "main" reg differs form the secondary because it also carries an hose of the BCD and the SPG, while the secondary has just one longer yellow hose, connecting the first and the second stage.
Here in Europe the standard tanks for rec diving are 15 liters, 232 bars, with two posts, so you can always use two fully independent regs on two posts.
I did find similar tanks in all diving centers around the world which were managed by Italians (Maldives, Kenya, Tanzania, Seychelles, etc.).
Only once I did not have the possibility to use my two independent regs, and I had to dismount one secondary and use it as an octopus for the main reg.
When I was working as an instructor and dive master at Maldives, the customers were given smaller 10-liters tanks (never understood why) so they were very often low on air, and we had to give them our secondary reg.
In such situation, I was using two first stages and THREE second stages, the third one being mounted on the left shoulder, so "wrong" for me but easier to breath for customer. And it happened to me to use both secondaries simultaneously, giving air to customers which were low on air, while ascending slowly to the rod where the deco bottles were attached.
Last point. I am NOT a tech diver. However, I am qualified both as a diver and instructor to operate down to 50m, with deco (and to use CC pure-oxygen rebreathers). This was (and is still) rec diving if practised in free water (not inside a cave). The whole concept that "deco si evil "or "deco is tech" is completely wrong, in my opinion: a dive planned and conducted just beyond the NDL limits, where a few minutes of mandatory deco stop are planned and required, is safer than a dive planned to be just within NDL; where any minor unplanned event can push you outside NDL, without being prepared and equipped and trained for deco.
Back on topic about pony/deco bottles. In that period at Maldives we were using 10-liters deco bottles, but we were not carrying them with us for the whole dive. They were provided on demand by the support dhoni boat, when the DM launched his buoy (at the time it was a round buoy), splashing in the water a system made of two buoys, carrying a steel rod at 3m, and two deco tanks hanging down to 6, (where the first deco stop was occurring in the worst cases - in most cases we were going slightly in deco, so only a stop at 3m was required).
Only in very rare occasions, when there was a high risk that the boat could not provide the deco bottles on request, we had to carry them during the dive. In those years proper harness for attaching them to your body in a streamlined fashion had not been invented yet, so typically the leading instructor and the DM closing the group were carrying one of these deco bottles simply attaching their valve to a shoulder ring with a carabiner, and leaving the tank and the reg hanging around. Not nice, and very unpractical...
However, while carrying such an additional tank, it had been barely stupid to remove the second reg form the second post on the main tank. I really do not see the point raised by @tbone1004 that when carrying an additional tank (call it pony, or deco, or simply additional) you should remove the second reg from the main tank... The main tank, with just a single reg, is quite unsafe. If this reg has problems, all the air trapped in the huge main tank becomes unavailable...
And doing a CESA had never been a good solution, for me. I did never teach this to my students, I always recommended to solve any problem staying underwater, and to carry equipment and being trained to use it for avoiding the need of a CESA.
 
@RyanT and @Angelo Farina correct. The issue is with multiple second stages. It leads to potential confusion in the system and is carrying extra equipment that doesn't need to be there. Goes against KISS and all of the original thoughts being hogarthian configurations where you only take what is necessary and valuable. The extra second stage is not necessary and only brings confusion.
Nothing that I have said has anything to do with overhead or simulated overhead environments, though I do consider wreck diving in anything resembling high current to be overhead diving with regards to planning. If you are on the stern of a wreck and run out of gas, but the anchor line is at the bow, you need to get back to the bow before you can make that ascent or a boat is going to be chasing you later on and you'll have a very grumpy crew.
The horse is sufficiently beaten.
OK, I see, you are against the use of an octo. I do not like octos too, but they are the only possibility in places where the tanks have only one post. Unfortunately it seems that there are still many of these places, albeit, luckily, this happened to me only once at Cairns, in Australia, in 2007.
For me, having two independent regs on the main tank is definitely better and safer, albeit people pushing for minimalism say that "what is not there cannot break", and they consider my setup "overkilling" for normal rec diving.
So, even when carrying a pony/stage/deco/whatever additional tank, and if the main tank has only one post, I would NOT remove the octo. As said, if the main reg fails, you can breath from the octo (if the problem was not at the first stage). And the octo is good for giving air to a buddy who is OOA.
Better to have just some redundancy than to have no redundancy. Full redundancy is better, but why renouncing to partial redundancy when fully redundancy is impossible?
Furthermore, I am used to have two second stages coming from my back. Loosing one would feel me uncomfortable. Why changing my setup, only because I decided to carry with the me an additional tank attached to my harness?
You say that this can cause potential confusion, and that you think that you need to carry just the "necessary and valuable". Well, confusion for me would come from not having my secondary second stage attached where I am used to have it, and definitely I consider it "necessary and valuable", also if an additional 10-liters tank is attached to my side... That has different purposes than my secondary reg, and I do not see why to renounce to the first for carrying the second.
 
Just to confuse things slightly, over here we tend to use the term 'stage' and 'deco' cylinder interchangeably. In other words, a UK diver will often use the term stage when referring to his / her deco cylinder.

Here, we refer to anything clipped on as a stage. Pony is a stupid term anyway. Those of us that use them, know exactly what purpose we're using them for anyway.

And Dove is still a small white bird! :popcorn:
 

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