Please Tell me That This is a Joke ?

[deco_martini]

are there some independent tests results for these things?

That displays reason and skepticism that has no place on an internet forum.

It was also the first thing I was thinking.

Mind you, fin tests are rather subjective and prone to tester bias. I haven't seen many "blind" fin tests where people are not allowed to know which fins they are wearing and have them put on by someone else.

You would also have to disqualify anyone who looked down and back at their fins.

At the end of the course you would have to remove their fins in such a way that they don't see them so they can tell you "how they felt" in addition to using the watch timer.

A true independent blind or double-blind fin review would be something that I doubt any fin manufacturer would put up the money for.

I would however would not recommend any supposedly scholarly reports coming from a manufacturer about their own product since it is neither double blind or single blind. No offense to them, but I am sure their own scientist on staff knows how testing, verification, peer review, and repeatable trials work.

 

[JackSpearo]

You are so right. I can easily see the difference. It is also apparent that there is a lot less ego in the fins.

You actually took time out of your day to post those pictures, awesome. Great job!

 

[deco_martini]

You could compare them to a rolex which is a luxury item and doesn't claim to keep time better from its more expensive and less expensive models.

You could also compare them to the:
7,250 Pear Anjou speaker cables

"James Randi offered US$ 1 million to anyone who can prove that a pair of $7,250 Pear Anjou speaker cables is any better than ordinary (and also overpriced) Monster Cables. Pointing out the absurd review by audiophile Dave Clark, who called the cables 'danceable,' Randi called it 'hilarious and preposterous.' He added that if the cables could do what their makers claimed, 'they would be paranormal.'"

Slashdot | James Randi Posts $1M Award On Speaker Cables

Now, the claims of force fins of course are not so outlandish as the example of the pear speaker cable. I just posted it as more accurate parallel than a fine handmade watch possibly made with rare metals (silver/gold) and offering a branding that is world wide renowned.

Again, I am not sure there is enough money in the fin business for a manufacturer to take the plunge and pay for independent testing to validate their claims about their product. It may be safe to leave it as a case of "buyer beware".

For 800 bucks, I do except solid gold clasps though. Perhaps Rodale's could refine its fin tests to be single blind?

 

[JackSpearo]

yea that's what I was thinking...some how the gold propels the fin faster... or maybe they are made from martian soil... it's gotta be something like that...

 

[mempilot]

Nope... not a joke.

Laura, how's it going? Hope all is well. I haven't stopped by the warehouse in a while. I need to stop in and say hi after I pick up my tanks (hydro) from you know who over at Diving Technologies.

Oh, and BTW, you aren't stocking these FF's now, are you?

Eric

 

[Blair Mott]

Some reading on the Force Fin Website
Mark Andrews Testimonial
Jens Hilbert Testimonial
navy_study
Thanks again for all your feedback.

 

[deco_martini]

Some reading on the Force Fin Website
Mark Andrews Testimonial
Jens Hilbert Testimonial
navy_study
Thanks again for all your feedback.

Testimonials are not studies, they are anecdotal evidence.

The study by the navy is much more interesting but I'm afraid that without the names of the other fins involved it is hard to evaluate. In the scientific method, a study is only good if the results can be duplicated by another independent tester which means knowing the test protocol and the controls (and in this case, the other fins).

Also note the navy study was conducted in 91-92 which is 15 years ago. I think two reasonable people could agree that this study at most proves that force fins were marginally better under constant kicking conditions versus two pairs of unidentified fins from that era.

Which isn't to say that force fins do not live up to the hype. All I am saying is the claims are unproven.

 

[mempilot]

Wow, what an interesting discussion. It tells me that I need to videotape our next tan delta production. When you see how these are made, you'll think I'm crazy for not charging more. In the meantime, join us on March 15th in Weeki Wachee, I will be the guest of Hal Watts and Net Doc who has arranged with ScubaNews and Scuba Radio to give the Excellerating Force Fin and many other models a try. We'll have fun.

Yep, because going fast is the most important thing with a fin.

I'd say torque and control. I haven't been in a race underwater in a long, uh, ever.

I guess at $750+ a pop, you don't have to sell too many to break even. Come up with a good enough marketing campaign, and you might just be able to do that. Or, maybe the expensive marketing campaign is why you have to charge so much in the first place? :11:

Usually, a revolutionary product makes such an impact that over time it lowers the cost per unit due to volume. Your prices just keep going up. Hmmm.

 

[Rick Inman]

Just curious, how do FFs do with anti-silting, environmentally friendly kicks, like the frog kick and the reverse frog kick for backing up?

 

[sambolino44]

My experience has been that they don't seem as efficient with the regular frog kick as regular fins, but they aren't nearly as bad as some people would have you believe. I use mostly frog kicks to get around. When using a regular kick (what do they call that, a scissor kick?) really close to the bottom they don't kick up silt like regular fins do. You can skim as close as you can get to the bottom and you don't kick up clouds. They work better than any other fin I've tried (admittedly, not that many) with a reverse frog kick.

There are several other factors besides actual swimming performance to consider, too. The foot pocket is way different from any other fin; you end up using the muscles higher up in your leg because of that, and you don't get cramps as easily. They're small for packing. Not that anyone would walk around in fins any more than they have to, but if you do have to take a few steps, they are easier to walk in; you don't have to turn around and go backward. I don't know how much of this holds true for those longer ones the thread was started about.