Here you go diving and suddenly everything goes up side down.
Humuhumunukunukuapua'a.
Regardless how much you are trying to steer the thread into a discussion about dog-dog aggression, it was never the only issue of this thread.
It started as a description of an occurrence Ber encountered and quickly deteriorated into people stating their misconceptions about this breed: Locking jaws, genetically dangerous, etc, etc. The main discussion appears to be leading to the question whether aggression (in general) is inherited and whether Pit Bulls are inherently vicious. Regardless of whether it is to humans or other animal (dogs included).
It would be much easier to have a scientific discussion (As much as we should/could on the non dive related forum of a board dedicated to Scuba
) if your statements would be showing consistency.
You appear very patronizing to everyone who disagrees with you when saying that they have no experience with dogs or any knowledge about them. This is especially true when trying to do it to people who are/were doing it for living.
I'll try not to sink to such a level of discussion but please allow me to ask you what are your credentials to be able to allow yourself such statements?.
Please enlighten us as to your specific experience in this field, your education and source of knowledge (Beside the 3 links you've provided and which we'll talk shortly about) as it may be of interest to know with whom we're dealing and what value his knowledge and information has.
You've asked Mania whether she's a geneticist and dismissed her knowledge. Well, let me ask you whether you are a geneticist and what do you know in this field?
Let me tell you that it takes several generations to breed a trait in but only few for it to disappear. Don't believe me?
Let's ask some real animal geneticist: Go to
Canine Behaviour and Please read
Population Dynamics by Univ. Prof. Dr. Irene Sommerfeld-Stur from the Institute of Animal Breeding and Genetics at The University of Veterinary Medicine in Vienna. Austria. While you are at it, you may want to read
Canine Genetics / Behavior by Dr M Milani D.V.M and
Canine Genetics and Behavior by Glen Bui.
In order to understand aggression, you have to understand the etiology of aggression. It isn't surprising that it is difficult for you as a layman as many people who should know it better fall victims to popular beliefs and misconceptions.
Let's try it again (for the last time as I hope.
):
Aggression is a completely normal behaviour for dogs, humans and most if not all animals. It becomes a problem when this aggression is expressed in an out of context or exaggerated way, this is also true to humans just as it is true to dogs. Some kinds of aggression are widely accepted as desired as they are useful for the purpose the owner wants to use the dog, while others are totally unacceptable.
Psychology defines aggression as "learned behaviour". Meaning, a child (or a dog) isn't born with the knowledge or desire to use violence as a means for controlling his/her environment. They must learn that through example and/or experience.
Judging by this definition, aggression can only be individual and can not be applied to a whole population.
Aggression is a learned behaviour
not a trait and there is no "aggression gene" discovered as for now. Behaviour is a combination of different traits and is influenced by environment.
Traits can be inherited and all dogs have the exactly same traits. The difference is in the strength these traits are being expressed in a breed and in each individual.
Having certain traits does not make a breed aggressive. Aggression is a multi-factoral process and can not be generalized for a whole breed as each individual will experience different things during their life that will determine how they will develop. That means that even if you'll find 2 individuals with a completely identical genetic make up, their behaviour will be rather determined by the environment and they will exhibit different behaviours. Using aggression as an example for behaviour, one of these dogs can be very dangerous dog to his environment while the other could be a couch potato.
What is true though that breeding toward a certain behaviour and desired traits may make a breed to be in risk to have an above average number of individuals that are predisposed to expresses an inappropriate behaviour or exaggerated traits that were desired originally. Nevertheless the inappropriate behaviour or exaggerated traits can be found in individuals of other breeds that were not bred originally to achieve this kind of behaviour or have those specific traits.
This is not only my opinion but also the opinion of
Dr. Karen Overall, one of North Americas foremost researchers in the field of Veterinary behaviour. Please read her presentation from the 2001 Atlantic Coast Veterinary Conference about
Development of behaviour.
If you would be able to read German, I'd post some of the works of
Dr. Dorit Urd Feddersen-Petersen, DVM, one of the worlds foremost researchers in the field we're discussing, which would also support my point but you'll have to take my word on it. This is a person who worked with
Konrad Lorenz, the father of the discipline of Ethology (Animal Behaviour), who in 1973 was awarded the Nobel Prize for Physiology or Medicine for their discoveries concerning animal behavioural patterns.
I think that we can conclude as established knowledge that Aggression is not inherited per se and no breed can be classified as Aggressive. Some representative of a breed may be
in an increased risk to be predisposed to exhibit some aggression.
Now, lets go and try to accommodate your need to discuss dog-dog aggression.
What kind of dog aggression do you mind specifically? There are
more than 10 established forms of aggression and they all have different causes and ways to be expressed.
Some forms of aggression are touched in this
presentation from the 27th World Small Animal Veterinary Association Congress.
also, lets examine some research done world wide about dog-dog aggression.
Roll and Unselm in Germany concluded in the following publication from 1997: "Aggressive conflicts among dogs and factors affecting them" (File too big to be attached) That:
Summarizing the results of the present study, it is clearly shown that not only characteristics of the dogs belonging to the group of victims and aggressors are found (including breed, gender, background, training, and housing), but also typical characteristics of the dog owners.
The following publication from Denmark: "Risk factors associated with inter-dog aggression and shooting phobias among purebred dogs in Denmark" (Also too big to be attached) concludes:
Although the models might not reflect the true populations in the DKC, the associations shows that generally, the owners lack of knowledge, lack of experience and lower age strongly influence the risk of the investigated behaviour problems.
I could bring more sources but this should be enough to support my statements that dog-dog aggression also is determined more by other influences than only a specific breed or "genetics".
Now, let's examine your sources, which you've quoted several times in this discussion.
While acknowledging the devotion and love to the Pit Bull of the people who run these websites, I have to ask what their qualification are to make such statements? What sources were used for the statements you've quoted?
Let's take a look at the population of dogs that these organisations are dealing with. Very few well socialized, well behaved dogs of good owner are been given for adoption. Most of the dogs they will see are the dogs that got previously into trouble and frequently exceed the knowledge and abilities of their owner, you'll find the dogs of owner that were never devoted to their dogs and never educated them in an appropriate way and other "unwanted" dogs. Nevertheless this is only a small portion of the whole Pit Bull population.
Judging by their experience, as limited it is in regard to the whole population, they can easily conclude that they are aggressive toward other dogs and we shouldn't forget that these people are still layman in the field of Genetics and Behaviour development and as such, they can fall victim to popular beliefs and misconceptions just as you did.
I would consider the information you've quoted not as a general breed information but rather a disclaimer for people interested adopting a pet from them. A pet that is most likely already troubled and may be in an increased risk to develop any kind of aggression if he has not already, based on their experiences with previous owner and what they have learned from them.
As a conclusion, let's look at the whole population of Pit Bulls. The ones that expresses problematic aggression to dogs are very few and even fewer are aggressive to people. Looking at the big picture, we have to realise that we are talking about a minority, only a small fraction, of the whole population. To draw conclusions from few aggressive examples on a whole population is wrong and scientifically unacceptable method of thinking.
Finally, I would hope that the breed and their owner ("The good ones, not the ice heads"
) will not be vilified for misconceptions spread by an uneducated and uninformed media and others.
I'm shooting for something a bit smaller like training a dog to mellow its innate traits, or planning for my next scuba dive. But we all need goals (sorry for the bit of pessimism).
