Pit bull coming at me, owner screaming "Vicious NO"

[**ping**]

I hate these kinds of dogs... and I hate their owners even more.

 

[Dive-aholic]

...I don't hate pit bulls, but I do think it is sad that they are so heavily bred into the population, because they have bad tendencies by nature. See, it's OK to say a dog has tendencies that nature provides. You can't keep labs out of water. Shepherds will herd your kids around the house because of instincts. It's hard as hell to housetrain a beagle. And pit bulls tend to be very aggressive toward other dogs more than most breeds. Even my pit bull owning friends admit that....

And why is this? Is it because humans have bred them for that, or because they are truly that way? Did labs always like water, or have humans made it something they like? How about shepherds?

I once had a wolf hybrid. She was very skittish when I first got her and didn't like men. None of the male animal control officers would go near her. I worked with her for about a week and gained her trust. By the 5th day, I was picking her up to put her inside a portable kennel to bring her to the vet for her vacs and sterilization. The senior animal control officer stood about 20 feet away because he was afraid of how she might react. She had no problems with me picking her up. I introduced her to my other dogs and to other people, including children. She growled at me ONCE! I took care of that outburst, and she never did it again. We guessed (animal control and vet included) she was about 90-95% wolf. She also became one of the most loving animals I've ever had. So, for all of you who believe it's in the genes, why didn't she retain her natural wolf instincts?

 

[DiverBuoy]

Dive-aholic do you deny any and all genetic influence of behavioral predisposition, tendancy or inclination?

 

[aquaoren]

b/c the dynamics are different

fighting dogs are not so much bred "to fight" as to be fearles, aggressive,
to tolerate pain, and to concentrate on task completion

then you have to TEACH them to fight

i do agree that such dogs will be much harder to handle, as they
will challenge you for alpha dog status, and will not respect you
if handled poorly

which is why i say that it's the owner that matters.

This is a very good description but it has one little mistake that changes the whole understanding of genetics and aggression. I hope that once I'll explain it, it will be easier to understand the dynamics of how a dog can become aggressive.

Lets start with saying that Aggression is an acquired behaviour, you are not born with it.

Dogs were bred toward a desired temperament not aggression. You can call it "personality" too. Personalities can vary a lot within a breed and even a littler. You will have the more confident, adventurous puppies and the more shy ones. You will have the more submissive and the more dominant and everything in between.
It is known that the variety of temperaments varies more within a breed itself more than when compared to other breeds, which means that within every breed you'll find personality variation. Good and bad tempers. No breed is a homogeneous mass.
Certain personalities can make a puppy be proned to become aggressive if several factors come together.
First, you have a dog that has bad temper to start with and encourage him to misbehave, than you have a problem at hand.
BUT even if you have a good tempered dog, you can make him a beast by teaching him the wrong things. OTOH, if you have a bad tempered dog, you can make him as peaceful as a lamb with the appropriate training.
As you can see. Having a bad temper could be helpful in making a dog aggressive but is not a condition for aggression to develop.

Why do shepherds herd more than other dogs?
Well, some breeds come with certain traits. You can call it "talents".
Now, these talents are not breed specific. You'll find shepherds that have no inclination to herd, while a bulldog can be born with excellent herding talents. Not all Labs will retrieve but you may have a shepherd that loves retrieving and so on and so on.
These traits are individual as well. In every litter of shepherds you'll end up having puppies that will have more and less of that talent. It is not said that offspring from dogs that are excellent and trained shepherds will be as good as their parents or even have an interest in herding.
Even with these traits, if they are not developed, the dog will not become a shepherd. It takes couple of years to train a dog to herd.
I could take a dog that doesn't have the herding trait and train it to herd, it would do a better job at herding than a shepherd that was never taught herding even if he had a very strong trait to do so.
These traits only make a dog to be more suitable to be used for a certain purpose, while not saying that he'll be doing it well.
Simpler: The children of a musician do not have to be good musician as well even if they have a musical talent especially if they don't develop this talent. Someone who does not have a musical talent could be a far better musician if they work hard with the right instruction.

Dive-aholic: I don't have anything at all against shepherds. German shepherds are beautiful dogs and I may even get me one someday.
Nevertheless, they are very smart dogs and require appropriate training to control their sometimes explosive temperament. In the wrong hands, a German shepherd is not less of a danger than a bad tempered Pit Bull.
Have you asked yourself why Police forces are using Shepherds? Not only they are smart, they are easier to train to bite people. Are you aware of how many service dogs bite their handlers?
Could you imagine what would happen with the dimwits that are misusing Pit Bulls if they would try the same with German shepherds? They would get their *sses bit to shreds.

Have you considered that this can apply to animals, too? Couldn't the behavior be a result of the training, upbringing, and environment of the animal?

But this is exactly the point I'm trying to get over here.

KidK9: Unfortunately, while Veterinary Medicine is advanced in North America, Behaviour research is about 20 years behind the Europeans. There is very few significant North American publications in this field. Most of my sources are European and in form of CE Proceedings.
You may look at the Brits for more information if you are really interested in this area.
I'll try to find something for you and PM it. After I went diving of course.

Doc Intrepid: Don't get wrong. I'm not against guns. I'm against the idea that guns are the solution for any problem. There are certainly problems where guns are the solution but these are few.
While you are talking about skilled marksman, I'm talking about Joe Blow who carries a weapon and thinks he's skilled because he goes and shoots once every other week on the range on non-moving paper targets.
In this case, standing on rollerblades, having a dog charging towards you and having at least one girl in close proximity to the dog (maybe even in the line of fire behind the dog) pulling out a gun by someone who thinks he is proficient, is an invitation for disaster.
Unless you are of course advocating that an accidental shooting of one of the girls (regardless how stupid they may have been and unable to control the dog) would be acceptable to prevent a possible bite wound to you?
Me? I'd rather risk getting bit by a dog than risk shooting someone whose primary focus wasn't trying to hurt me directly.

ThatsSomeBadHatHarry:

Just to say something do add to the data. A pit bull was making lunges at one of the Vets i work with today. This dog was unapproachable. Vicious. The owner knew too. her claim was "we raised him just like our other dogs. He just gets this way around strangers. isn't that nice. just thought I'd throw that out there.

I would be impressed if this was the only breed that exhibited this kind of behaviour in your clinic.
I had the same thing happen to me with a Border Collie last week. My patient only ended up biting the owner in the hand when she was trying to lift him on the table. I recommended muzzling before trying it but she said: "Oh no, He just don't like strangers but he's fine with me". After getting bit: "He never done it with me before" The dog is 15 months old and I'm horrified to think how he'll be in a year. Is it representative to all Border Collies? I don't think so. It tells me that the owner failed miserably in their attempts to train the dog appropriately just like the owner in your post.
She said that:"we raised him just like our other dogs". Since every dog is an individual and may require special attention to correct undesired behaviour. Failing to understand it is failing your duties as a responsible and knowledgeable dog owner.

Humuhumunukunukuapua'a: Your statements are contrary to the stand of knowledge as we know it today.
Again, Aggression is an acquired behaviour, there is no proof it is genetically inheritable. Explanation: See above.


Since I don't expect anyone to change their opinion and I'm not here to try to do it either, I think I'll leave my participation in this thread with this.
I provided you with the current stand of science and our knowledge as I know it but what you'll do with it is completely up to each of you.
Should you have any questions, you're more than welcome to PM me. I'll try to answer them between work and diving. No promises.

Oh yes, **ping**: I hate ignorant people.
So what?, who cares?

 

[Dive-aholic]

Dive-aholic do you deny any and all genetic influence of behavioral predisposition, tendancy or inclination?

I don't deny it. I just think it can be overcome.

I don't have anything at all against shepherds. German shepherds are beautiful dogs and I may even get me one someday.
Nevertheless, they are very smart dogs and require appropriate training to control their sometime explosive temperament. In the wrong hands, a German shepherd is not less of a danger than a bad tempered Pit Bull.
Have you asked yourself why Police forces are using Shepherds? Not only they are smart, they are easier to train to bite people. Are you aware of how many service dogs bite their handlers?
Could you imagine what would happen with the dimwits that are misusing Pit Bulls if they would try the same with German shepherds? They would get their *sses bit to shreds.

Police forces use German Shepherds because they are easier to train, and they have the "look" they want. I've only owned one German Shepherd. I currently own him now. He's 3 1/2 years old. I've had him since he was 2 months old. He weighs 130 lbs. I haven't seen even a hint of the explosive temperament you refer to. As for my experience with other German Shepherds, I was an MP and a police officer for several years. I never heard of any of the shepherds I encountered biting their handlers. I currently work as a registered nurse. Several of the hospitals I work at have 2 or more shepherds used to patrol the hospital campus. Again, no bite reports. And working in the ER at some of these places, I would hear about it. I also do interact with those animals, as well.

I still stand by my statement that it's the owner not the animal that creates the temperament. My experience just hasn't shown it to be different than that.

 

[Humuhumunukunukuapua'a]

Humuhumunukunukuapua'a: Your statements are contrary to the stand of knowledge as we know it today.
Again, Aggression is an acquired behaviour, there is no proof it is genetically inheritable. Explanation: See above.

Hmm...but I posted links that supported my stance. You just went on and on basically saying that there can be exceptions to the rules, in general.

Sure there can. There a pits that will never be aggressive toward another dog. But they are more predisposed to attack other dogs than most breeds. It's simple. And it's fact.

So, don't tell me my "statements are contrary to the stand of knowledge as we know it today" whatever that means. Clarify your stance. Do pit bulls as a breed tend to be more aggressive toward other dogs than other breeds? You say no? Post some links supporting that opinion as I did supporting mine. Because your "Explanation" reads like random generalizations about trying to pigeonhole things and never really addresses the simple question at all, nor does it offer any evidence of any kind supporting your stance.

 

[Cacia]

Humu, as usual, I agree. nice of you to show up.

 

[HarryWhisman]

Even with these traits, if they are not developed, the dog will not become a shepherd. It takes couple of years to train a dog to herd.

We had one chase the horses right up to the back porch his first day out. He just stood there behind them with his tongue hanging out like he'd been doing it for years.

 

[markfm]

GF has a "save" dog, from an animal shelter, has had him 5 years. Appears to be a pit-lab mix. Terrible around my 10-yo Aussie, Heidi, even though she's non-aggressive towards him, goes into play stance (the swoop back, wagging butt). He's done a random attack on her, totally out of the blue (from ignoring to turn-and-bite), I'm having a bear of a time trying to train him. (true attack, continued aggression, not a keep-away thing)

Dumb shmuck -- Heidi out-masses him by 50% and is a very fit pooch, holed his dog tags when he went after her.

Hoping that a lot of basic obedience work, with me in control and Heidi on stay, will get him to understand who is the top alpha (me, with GF the top female), and that Heidi is not to be attacked, but it's gonna be a long haul.

 

[laughintom]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull

The link has the pit bull image I was referring to. The pitbull was used in propaganda materials during WW1 to represent the tenacious nature of americans. I have seen this image in several different posters from that period.

The difference between the pit and the schnauzer or pomeranian that goes after every dog it sees lies in the strength of the pit and the perception of society. The pomeranian does not bother most people, including children and little old ladies, because of our ability to punt the offending canine should it get loose.

Tragically, dogs are just like children. Even the strongest, with the right guidance, are capable of being healthy, well adjusted, and happy. In the wrong household, there is not a lot of difference between the destructive abilities of a "bad child" and a "bad dog".

Pits are bred to be better fighters than the average dogs and thus will even with other dogs in the same home, constantly play fight. A well bred pit does not fight out of aggression, they are more like teenagers wrestling in the backyard "just to see who's strongest".

H2OAndy
While I enjoy your posts, I have to correct one fact. Pits have been rolled against Tosas, Akitas, Bandogs, Rotties and anything else vaguely related to a dog. The reason this breed has been used almost exclusively by dog fighters is that there is no other breed nearly as effective when it comes to fighting another dog. Even when matched against dogs two to three times their weight, they win. That is not to say that an exceptionally game dog of another breed cannot beat a cur, but when best of breed is matched, the pit wins. With this in mind, any owner of a pit that lets it run off the leash, should be charged and or fined if the dog hurts another dog.