It has already been said, but I feel the time to say it again should be taken. John, Carolyn, Thank you both for the time and effort you took to sort it all out.
Philosophy split discussion
- Thread starter LIVES4SHARKS
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POV Warriors seldom see how they violate the ToS. Their message is as insidious as it is toxic to our community and somehow they have justified this in their own minds. There are a number of users who can be described as "Anti PADI" and yet they still give us their best "Who Me?" comments when they are labeled as such. It's not that they are bad people, but they live in such a state of denial about their incessant PADI ridicule that they just can't see it to change it. Moreover, their perception of their teaching standards put's them equal to or just above God and frankly us average instructors are in awe of them, if we could ever stop chuckling. Moderate them and you face their collective wrath with rants about how it was impossible for them to have crossed the ToS (since they did their level best to skirt just under it). This is little more than agency dog-piling and while it's a function of the internet, it doesn't mean we have to accommodate that sort of group thuggery.
I have suggested it before, but why don't you POV Warriors just tell us how YOU teach people instead of how all of our students are going to die because we don't train the way you do. IOW, dazzle us with your excellence and leave the constant belittling of all of us stroke instructors at the door. Most of us have already learned to roll our eyes at your self aggrandizing rants and look to other posters who try to make us think instead of flinch. Unfortunately, there are a few who fail to see your baiting comments as such and start to tilt at the various windmills you construct with extreme vigor. While this mental exercise may stroke your ego, it does little to encourage mere mortal instructors to post their experiences when they see how you attack en masse. They're too afraid that you will collectively pummel them into cyber-unconsciousness if they dare to differ with you. What? You don't see this? How amazingly consistent.
The Basic Scuba and New to Scuba forums are simply off limits to this kind of passive aggressive behavior. We don't need you to scare the crap out of would be posters in there with your "holier than thou" attitudes in concerns to diving and instruction. That means that while the normal ToS is still in effect there, so are a raft of other conditions and there is simply no place for POV fights in those forums no matter how quixotic you might feel. We have worked hard to make this place a haven for ALL scuba divers and not just ones who agree with your POV. By gum we will work to keep it that way.
Now, I am sure that a few POV Warriors will take exception to my post and will do so vehemently. I expect to ruffle a few feathers with my remarks, but I did so OUTSIDE of the New to Scuba and Basic Scuba forums. Why? There is simply no need for this kind of discourse in those forums. I don't care if you want to bash PADI or the whole panoply of scuba agencies... just don't do it there!
(Hey Lives4Sharks and Cave Diver... they have a new target now! Thanks for the hard work and devotion. I really appreciate you two. )
I have suggested it before, but why don't you POV Warriors just tell us how YOU teach people instead of how all of our students are going to die because we don't train the way you do. IOW, dazzle us with your excellence and leave the constant belittling of all of us stroke instructors at the door. Most of us have already learned to roll our eyes at your self aggrandizing rants and look to other posters who try to make us think instead of flinch. Unfortunately, there are a few who fail to see your baiting comments as such and start to tilt at the various windmills you construct with extreme vigor. While this mental exercise may stroke your ego, it does little to encourage mere mortal instructors to post their experiences when they see how you attack en masse. They're too afraid that you will collectively pummel them into cyber-unconsciousness if they dare to differ with you. What? You don't see this? How amazingly consistent.
The Basic Scuba and New to Scuba forums are simply off limits to this kind of passive aggressive behavior. We don't need you to scare the crap out of would be posters in there with your "holier than thou" attitudes in concerns to diving and instruction. That means that while the normal ToS is still in effect there, so are a raft of other conditions and there is simply no place for POV fights in those forums no matter how quixotic you might feel. We have worked hard to make this place a haven for ALL scuba divers and not just ones who agree with your POV. By gum we will work to keep it that way.
Now, I am sure that a few POV Warriors will take exception to my post and will do so vehemently. I expect to ruffle a few feathers with my remarks, but I did so OUTSIDE of the New to Scuba and Basic Scuba forums. Why? There is simply no need for this kind of discourse in those forums. I don't care if you want to bash PADI or the whole panoply of scuba agencies... just don't do it there!
(Hey Lives4Sharks and Cave Diver... they have a new target now! Thanks for the hard work and devotion. I really appreciate you two.
)
OP
Gentlemen, I want to thank you for your patience. I am still learning and I am happy to admit to any faux pas. The moderation was my final decision and at the time it did make sense. I appreciate your feedback and it helps me learn, especially when threads get heavily debated.
On a side note, as still a newer diver (3yrs), the statements made against organizations would have not necessarily been helpful for me. If I was a newbie, it would have turned me off to the good information in the thread. Many divers only have one shop in their area to choose from and one might not have the opportunity to pick the organization they can certify through. I am lucky to have had the pleasure of learning under many organizations and will learn under even more. Every instructor brings something to the table and many make the improvements that come with real dive experience. We can all make the diving industry better in a constructive way without making anyone feel bad about the organization they have their certification with. I commend all of you who train us, and like everything else in life, there is always room for improvement.
Thank you for a very enlightening few days!
Carolyn:shark2:
On a side note, as still a newer diver (3yrs), the statements made against organizations would have not necessarily been helpful for me. If I was a newbie, it would have turned me off to the good information in the thread. Many divers only have one shop in their area to choose from and one might not have the opportunity to pick the organization they can certify through. I am lucky to have had the pleasure of learning under many organizations and will learn under even more. Every instructor brings something to the table and many make the improvements that come with real dive experience. We can all make the diving industry better in a constructive way without making anyone feel bad about the organization they have their certification with. I commend all of you who train us, and like everything else in life, there is always room for improvement.
Thank you for a very enlightening few days!
Carolyn:shark2:
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POV Warriors seldom see how they violate the ToS. Their message is as insidious as it is toxic to our community and somehow they have justified this in their own minds. There are a number of users who can be described as "Anti PADI" and yet they still give us their best "Who Me?" comments when they are labeled as such. It's not that they are bad people, but they live in such a state of denial about their incessant PADI ridicule that they just can't see it to change it. Moreover, their perception of their teaching standards put's them equal to or just above God and frankly us average instructors are in awe of them, if we could ever stop chuckling. Moderate them and you face their collective wrath with rants about how it was impossible for them to have crossed the ToS (since they did their level best to skirt just under it). This is little more than agency dog-piling and while it's a function of the internet, it doesn't mean we have to accommodate that sort of group thuggery.
I have suggested it before, but why don't you POV Warriors just tell us how YOU teach people instead of how all of our students are going to die because we don't train the way you do. IOW, dazzle us with your excellence and leave the constant belittling of all of us stroke instructors at the door. Most of us have already learned to roll our eyes at your self aggrandizing rants and look to other posters who try to make us think instead of flinch. Unfortunately, there are a few who fail to see your baiting comments as such and start to tilt at the various windmills you construct with extreme vigor. While this mental exercise may stroke your ego, it does little to encourage mere mortal instructors to post their experiences when they see how you attack en masse. They're too afraid that you will collectively pummel them into cyber-unconsciousness if they dare to differ with you. What? You don't see this? How amazingly consistent.
The Basic Scuba and New to Scuba forums are simply off limits to this kind of passive aggressive behavior. We don't need you to scare the crap out of would be posters in there with your "holier than thou" attitudes in concerns to diving and instruction. That means that while the normal ToS is still in effect there, so are a raft of other conditions and there is simply no place for POV fights in those forums no matter how quixotic you might feel. We have worked hard to make this place a haven for ALL scuba divers and not just ones who agree with your POV. By gum we will work to keep it that way.
Now, I am sure that a few POV Warriors will take exception to my post and will do so vehemently. I expect to ruffle a few feathers with my remarks, but I did so OUTSIDE of the New to Scuba and Basic Scuba forums. Why? There is simply no need for this kind of discourse in those forums. I don't care if you want to bash PADI or the whole panoply of scuba agencies... just don't do it there!
(Hey Lives4Sharks and Cave Diver... they have a new target now! Thanks for the hard work and devotion. I really appreciate you two.
Well Pete, since you're expecting it, let me be the first to oblige.
I just don't see how "expecing to ruffle a few feathers" is going to resolve anything. I mean, myself and others didn't take exception so much to the action as to how it was done ... because it was done in contradiction to how you have told us such things would be handled.
Frankly I'm baffled ... by the action and by your response to those of us who objected to how it was handled. I'm further baffled by your post, because just when it seemed like everyone had decided that it was a satisfactory outcome, you come along, slap me, Wayne, Phil, Walter, Jim and a few others upside the head, and label us "POV Warriors".
I really don't get it. You state that we "crossed the ToS" ... but frankly, I don't see how. So rather than calling us names and accusing us of all sorts of nefarious intent, wouldn't it have been more constructive to point out where and how we did that? IF there's a "raft of other conditions" that apply to specific forums, perhaps it'd be a neat idea to post a sticky at the top of the forum letting people know what they are.
Pete ... I am perfectly happy to post within whatever limits you set for posting here. Problem is those limits are damn difficult to identify. I made it easy for you ... I reposted every single word of mine that got cut from the original thread and asked for someone to point out to me which of those words "crossed the ToS". You and your staff declined my request.
Rather than calling us names, wouldn't it have been better to describe WHY this action was taken? Wouldn't it have been better to have told people from the outset what was going on, rather than keep it behind the scenes in secrecy for days, allowing all sorts of speculation and angst over an action that nobody really understood? Wouldn't it have been better to not have posted what you just did and not further ruffle feathers? This dog had happily fallen asleep ... I see no constructive reason why you should have come along and kicked it.
It's your board. You can run it any way you please. But, quite honestly, I don't see the point in your post. Why don't you just tell me, Walter, Phil, Wayne, Jim, and anybody else who believes that dive training should be held to a higher standard to pack up and take our opinions elsewhere. You just made it pretty clear that our opinions are not welcome on ScubaBoard.
And for the record, I don't consider myself "holier than thou" at all ... I consider myself genuinely concerned about the safety of divers and the future of dive training. If that somehow violates your ToS, so be it.
I unthank you for that most unhelpful post ...
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Dang Bob,
I am not sure that I called you a POV Warrior. In fact, I am certain I didn't. I hope that clears this up for you.
However, the original thread was derailed by POV Warriors. I just deleted another post in that very same thread by the worst of the POV Warriors. He mentioned PADI 19 times in one post and laid some heavy innuendo as well as outright bashings within the post. Since he feels that I don't like him, and since I really don't like his attitude, I am letting other mods make the final decision as to whether his post gets replaced, moved to a more suitable location or remains hidden.
Of course, if you feel that I should not try to illuminate how these POV Warriors screwed up the thread in question, I guess I can see your point at how unhelpful my post is. Perhaps you feel that feedback should be only one way, and that I should not speak my mind. However, if you want to understand WHY we had to do something in the first place and can stop being so offended for a moment, you might learn something about POV Warriors and how they operate.
That being said, there is simply no room for Agency Bashing here on ScubaBoard and even less so in the "Basic" and "New to" forums. POV Warriors will soon find themselves locked out of those forums. If a user can't be friendly and non-threatening in those forums, then they should just stay out.
Edit: As a caveat, did WE make some mistakes in moderation? A few and probably the worst one was not acting soon enough to close/clean the thread in question. For those mistakes, you have my sincere apologies. Yes, others have apologized before me on our collective behalf, but here you have it straight from me. FWIW, moderating POV Warriors can be confusing at times. We don't want to over-moderate but we need to keep those forums to their own special rules as well. I hope this helps.
I am not sure that I called you a POV Warrior. In fact, I am certain I didn't. I hope that clears this up for you.
However, the original thread was derailed by POV Warriors. I just deleted another post in that very same thread by the worst of the POV Warriors. He mentioned PADI 19 times in one post and laid some heavy innuendo as well as outright bashings within the post. Since he feels that I don't like him, and since I really don't like his attitude, I am letting other mods make the final decision as to whether his post gets replaced, moved to a more suitable location or remains hidden.
Of course, if you feel that I should not try to illuminate how these POV Warriors screwed up the thread in question, I guess I can see your point at how unhelpful my post is. Perhaps you feel that feedback should be only one way, and that I should not speak my mind. However, if you want to understand WHY we had to do something in the first place and can stop being so offended for a moment, you might learn something about POV Warriors and how they operate.
That being said, there is simply no room for Agency Bashing here on ScubaBoard and even less so in the "Basic" and "New to" forums. POV Warriors will soon find themselves locked out of those forums. If a user can't be friendly and non-threatening in those forums, then they should just stay out.
Edit: As a caveat, did WE make some mistakes in moderation? A few and probably the worst one was not acting soon enough to close/clean the thread in question. For those mistakes, you have my sincere apologies. Yes, others have apologized before me on our collective behalf, but here you have it straight from me. FWIW, moderating POV Warriors can be confusing at times. We don't want to over-moderate but we need to keep those forums to their own special rules as well. I hope this helps.
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Yes, Pete ... I felt that your post was aimed at myself as well as others.
I agree with you that bashing agencies is a waste of time ... ESPECIALLY for those who are not members of those agencies. We all have a choice as to who we teach for, and why.
That said, I just didn't see a lot of agency bashing going on in that thread. And most of it was in response to comments by one particular pro-PADI person who was ... to my concern ... making some statements that I think even PADI would disagree with. I think a great deal of what got termed PADI-bashing was really not so much directed at PADI as it was at someone who, from my PoV was misrepresenting PADI's training goals.
I try hard not to make my comments agency-specific ... because I see almost all agencies racing toward a low bar in an effort to maintain market share, and I firmly believe that producing a low-quality product for the sake of attracting more customers isn't a goal that's consistent with diver safety.
But sometimes it's difficult NOT to involve agencies in that discussion ... especially when responding to someone who has already done so.
Perhaps restricting participation by those who consistently overstep the boundaries is a good idea ... but I do think that better defining the boundaries would be a good first step. It's tough to stay within the rules when you don't really know what they are.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Bob,
I sent you a PM with an example. Perhaps you can tell us if I was right about that particular post and about my comments about POV Warriors as well. It's hard to see the violations once the offending posts have been removed.
FWIW, I will not post that here... yet. My mods have as of yet to make a decision. I would expect later today or tomorrow for that to happen. Maybe longer.
I sent you a PM with an example. Perhaps you can tell us if I was right about that particular post and about my comments about POV Warriors as well. It's hard to see the violations once the offending posts have been removed.
FWIW, I will not post that here... yet. My mods have as of yet to make a decision. I would expect later today or tomorrow for that to happen. Maybe longer.
Pete,
Frankly, I'm not sure if I'm one of the "POV warriors" to whom you refer or not. Therein lies one of the problems with your posts. If you have a problem with me, it would be helpful if you'd tell me so and exactly what the problem might be. I can't adequately address issues if I'm guessing what those issues are. I'm trying very hard to play by the rules. If I'm missing the mark, an explanation would go a long way toward helping me do better. I suspect others feel the same.
Pointing out examples of violations and perhaps an explanation would be very helpful to avoiding future issues. I don't want to violate TOS. I think I have a pretty good handle on it, but I've been wrong before.
It seems to me that is the approach most are using these days. I can't remember anytime I saw a post saying your students were going to die.
A new target? Pete, while I've seen some concerns about the moderation posted, for the most part I've seen questions about the process, I've seen some opinions and I've seen lots of folks express the same feelings you've expressed - thanks to these two fine moderators.
I don't believe that was what Bob said at all. I understood him as wanting more feedback from you, not less. He wants a better understanding of your POV. Please reread what he said here:
The bottom line is most of us are trying to comply with your rules, Pete. Sometimes it's hard to understand exactly what they are. More specific feedback from you would be very helpful.
Frankly, I'm not sure if I'm one of the "POV warriors" to whom you refer or not. Therein lies one of the problems with your posts. If you have a problem with me, it would be helpful if you'd tell me so and exactly what the problem might be. I can't adequately address issues if I'm guessing what those issues are. I'm trying very hard to play by the rules. If I'm missing the mark, an explanation would go a long way toward helping me do better. I suspect others feel the same.
NetDoc:
Pointing out examples of violations and perhaps an explanation would be very helpful to avoiding future issues. I don't want to violate TOS. I think I have a pretty good handle on it, but I've been wrong before.
NetDoc:
It seems to me that is the approach most are using these days. I can't remember anytime I saw a post saying your students were going to die.
NetDoc:
A new target? Pete, while I've seen some concerns about the moderation posted, for the most part I've seen questions about the process, I've seen some opinions and I've seen lots of folks express the same feelings you've expressed - thanks to these two fine moderators.
NetDoc:
I don't believe that was what Bob said at all. I understood him as wanting more feedback from you, not less. He wants a better understanding of your POV. Please reread what he said here:
NWGratefulDiver:
The bottom line is most of us are trying to comply with your rules, Pete. Sometimes it's hard to understand exactly what they are. More specific feedback from you would be very helpful.
Tell me you're joking. We have talked about our differences in perspective ad nauseum, both in public and private. Are you a POV Warrior? At times, but you have learned to suppress that urge a lot.
Then, by all means, re-read my post and learn the CONCEPT. If you can't grasp the concept, then you can't grasp the application and especially the nuances. If you are in denial about the presence of POV Warriors, then everything I say will be nebulous and without merit.
Yes: a new target. Someone even called the mods "candy asses". Are you suggesting that this was constructive? I certainly didn't see you defending the mods over this statement.
Like you, it did not appear that Bob accepted the concept of a POV Warrior. Until you get that down, more feedback is moot.
This is exceedingly true. Unfortunately, there are a few who want to understand the rules only to circumvent them. Here is the description for our Basic Scuba Forum:
By design, POV Warriors instill fear by accosting those who have the temerity to disagree with them. They post their conclusions as absolute fact and will duel with you to the death that their opinions are sacrosanct and ToS compliant. Our worst offender has been sent a PM by me. Ergo, if you have not gotten "that" PM, then you are probably within the bounds of the special rules for that forum. However, if the shoe fits or almost fits: you might want to examine yourself. A bit of introspection is a good thing: even for uber instructors.
Pete,
As the offender here I withdraw the statement, it was my frustration in the seemingly lack of response from the mods and the fact that it seemed that Carolyn was left at point with no response from any other mods at all. John's response was as good or better than I could of asked for.
Chris
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