It has already been said, but I feel the time to say it again should be taken. John, Carolyn, Thank you both for the time and effort you took to sort it all out.
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POV Warriors seldom see how they violate the ToS. Their message is as insidious as it is toxic to our community and somehow they have justified this in their own minds. There are a number of users who can be described as "Anti PADI" and yet they still give us their best "Who Me?" comments when they are labeled as such. It's not that they are bad people, but they live in such a state of denial about their incessant PADI ridicule that they just can't see it to change it. Moreover, their perception of their teaching standards put's them equal to or just above God and frankly us average instructors are in awe of them, if we could ever stop chuckling. Moderate them and you face their collective wrath with rants about how it was impossible for them to have crossed the ToS (since they did their level best to skirt just under it). This is little more than agency dog-piling and while it's a function of the internet, it doesn't mean we have to accommodate that sort of group thuggery.
I have suggested it before, but why don't you POV Warriors just tell us how YOU teach people instead of how all of our students are going to die because we don't train the way you do. IOW, dazzle us with your excellence and leave the constant belittling of all of us stroke instructors at the door. Most of us have already learned to roll our eyes at your self aggrandizing rants and look to other posters who try to make us think instead of flinch. Unfortunately, there are a few who fail to see your baiting comments as such and start to tilt at the various windmills you construct with extreme vigor. While this mental exercise may stroke your ego, it does little to encourage mere mortal instructors to post their experiences when they see how you attack en masse. They're too afraid that you will collectively pummel them into cyber-unconsciousness if they dare to differ with you. What? You don't see this? How amazingly consistent.![]()
The Basic Scuba and New to Scuba forums are simply off limits to this kind of passive aggressive behavior. We don't need you to scare the crap out of would be posters in there with your "holier than thou" attitudes in concerns to diving and instruction. That means that while the normal ToS is still in effect there, so are a raft of other conditions and there is simply no place for POV fights in those forums no matter how quixotic you might feel. We have worked hard to make this place a haven for ALL scuba divers and not just ones who agree with your POV. By gum we will work to keep it that way.
Now, I am sure that a few POV Warriors will take exception to my post and will do so vehemently. I expect to ruffle a few feathers with my remarks, but I did so OUTSIDE of the New to Scuba and Basic Scuba forums. Why? There is simply no need for this kind of discourse in those forums. I don't care if you want to bash PADI or the whole panoply of scuba agencies... just don't do it there!
(Hey Lives4Sharks and Cave Diver... they have a new target now! Thanks for the hard work and devotion. I really appreciate you two.)
Dang Bob,
I am not sure that I called you a POV Warrior. In fact, I am certain I didn't. I hope that clears this up for you.
However, the original thread was derailed by POV Warriors. I just deleted another post in that very same thread by the worst of the POV Warriors. He mentioned PADI 19 times in one post and laid some heavy innuendo as well as outright bashings within the post. Since he feels that I don't like him, and since I really don't like his attitude, I am letting other mods make the final decision as to whether his post gets replaced, moved to a more suitable location or remains hidden.
Of course, if you feel that I should not try to illuminate how these POV Warriors screwed up the thread in question, I guess I can see your point at how unhelpful my post is. Perhaps you feel that feedback should be only one way, and that I should not speak my mind. However, if you want to understand WHY we had to do something in the first place and can stop being so offended for a moment, you might learn something about POV Warriors and how they operate.
That being said, there is simply no room for Agency Bashing here on ScubaBoard and even less so in the "Basic" and "New to" forums. POV Warriors will soon find themselves locked out of those forums. If a user can't be friendly and non-threatening in those forums, then they should just stay out.
NetDoc:POV Warriors seldom see how they violate the ToS.
NetDoc:just tell us how YOU teach people instead of how all of our students are going to die because we don't train the way you do.
NetDoc:Hey Lives4Sharks and Cave Diver... they have a new target now! Thanks for the hard work and devotion. I really appreciate you two.
NetDoc:if you feel that I should not try to illuminate how these POV Warriors screwed up the thread in question, I guess I can see your point at how unhelpful my post is. Perhaps you feel that feedback should be only one way, and that I should not speak my mind.
NWGratefulDiver:wouldn't it have been more constructive to point out where and how we did that? IF there's a "raft of other conditions" that apply to specific forums, perhaps it'd be a neat idea to post a sticky at the top of the forum letting people know what they are.
Tell me you're joking. We have talked about our differences in perspective ad nauseum, both in public and private. Are you a POV Warrior? At times, but you have learned to suppress that urge a lot.Pete,
Frankly, I'm not sure if I'm one of the "POV warriors" to whom you refer or not. Therein lies one of the problems with your posts. If you have a problem with me, it would be helpful if you'd tell me so and exactly what the problem might be.
Then, by all means, re-read my post and learn the CONCEPT. If you can't grasp the concept, then you can't grasp the application and especially the nuances. If you are in denial about the presence of POV Warriors, then everything I say will be nebulous and without merit.I can't adequately address issues if I'm guessing what those issues are.
Yes: a new target. Someone even called the mods "candy asses". Are you suggesting that this was constructive? I certainly didn't see you defending the mods over this statement.A new target?
Like you, it did not appear that Bob accepted the concept of a POV Warrior. Until you get that down, more feedback is moot.I don't believe that was what Bob said at all. I understood him as wanting more feedback from you, not less. He wants a better understanding of your POV.
This is exceedingly true. Unfortunately, there are a few who want to understand the rules only to circumvent them. Here is the description for our Basic Scuba Forum:The bottom line is most of us are trying to comply with your rules, Pete.
By design, POV Warriors instill fear by accosting those who have the temerity to disagree with them. They post their conclusions as absolute fact and will duel with you to the death that their opinions are sacrosanct and ToS compliant. Our worst offender has been sent a PM by me. Ergo, if you have not gotten "that" PM, then you are probably within the bounds of the special rules for that forum. However, if the shoe fits or almost fits: you might want to examine yourself. A bit of introspection is a good thing: even for uber instructors.Have a Scuba related question? Get a Scuba related answer here.
Please note: This forum has special rules. This forum is intended to be a very friendly, "flame free zone" where divers of any skill level may ask questions about basic scuba topics without fear of being accosted. Please show respect and courtesy at all times. Remember that the inquirer is looking for answers that they can understand. This is a learning zone and consequently, any off-topic or overly harsh responses will be removed.
Someone even called the mods "candy asses".