Philosophical Debate about Taking Young Divers Spearfishing

[Tigerman]

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1) A healthy reef should be teaming with fish. If it isn't it is not healthy. By spear fishing on an unhealthy reef you have much bigger effect in further damaging that reef especially as spear fishing tends to take the bigger predators. You can destroy the top of the food chain by spear fishing an unhealthy reef. This will cause there to be an even more unhealthy balance in herbivores vs predators, in algal infestations, coral death, etc. The relationship is well understood these days. If you kill the predators you'll kill the reef.
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Ive seen reefs teaming with fish one day, almost dead the next couple of days and teaming with fish again the following week.
Not all fish are stationary to the reef or the same spot on the reef.

I do however have to agree that taking out the "wrong" fish in some cases can cause serious issues with the reefs eco-system. Taking the one grouper thats running his protection racet on the glassfish for example is pretty much certain to make that glassfish population disappear as the other groupers will eat them all.

 

[MMM]

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[Splitlip]

Ive seen reefs teaming with fish one day, almost dead the next couple of days and teaming with fish again the following week.
Not all fish are stationary to the reef or the same spot on the reef.

all.

Tiger that is absolutely true. I dive the same reefs as dd. It a bunch of BS for people to come to the conclusion, based on a go pro video, that Palm Beach reefs are suffering because of spearfishing and dd.

Check out Dan Volker's web site. Link is in my sig. South Florida Dive Journal. You'll find some nice video there of our local sites.

---------- Post added April 15th, 2012 at 01:44 PM ----------

What is hurting our reefs is algae. A result of reduced shark population.

 

[danvolker]

Very true....on Palm Beach reefs, much of the predator and "gamefish" fish population, moves on and off constantly. Sometimes this has to do with tidal influence on zooplankton or nutrients....sometimes it may have to do with the schooling behavior of baitfish. If I had the answers, the Sportfish Captains would pay me a fortune.
In any event, on most dive days, there are Palm Beach reefs which will be predictably full of life....
I think the reef DD was on, was near the inlet mouth in around 80 feet..an area that gets lots of out going nutrient loading from the outgoiing tides, so the corals and other benthics have quite a challenge...but this is also an area that CAN have explosive amounts of big cobia, grouper, hogs, and much more of interest to spearfisherman..on some days. This is not a reef the charter boats usually hit, due to proximity to the navigation lane and freighter traffic, etc. It can be an exciting reef, but it is never going to be pretty unless we seal off the inlet.


Typical reefs a couple miles South of the Palm Beach Inlet where people dive to see healthy reef with no nutrient loading as found by an inlet --->
[video=youtube_share;q0W2VO5fbRw]http://youtu.be/q0W2VO5fbRw?hd=1[/video]

 

[TravisS.]

As someone that would like to get into spearfishing later down the road I find this thread interesting. Both sides of the discussion have made interesting points and shared individual views on the issue.

As a avid hunter (on land) I have been asked by several people why I find "killing animals" fun. Often I find it difficult to explain to them that I don't find "killing" fun (if I did I could "hunt" in my .5 acre backyard). Hunting a wild creature is an experience like non other. I have never harvested an animal that I did not respect as one of God's creations. All life is precious and deserves respect, even if its an invasive species. Our post modern society has an option not to personally kill for their dinner and that's fine.

If you were not brought up spearfishing, hunting, fishing ect. you might find it strange and distasteful. But my best memories as a young boy were made in the early hours of the day, watching the wild brush of South Texas come alive while sitting beside my father. Or watching evening turn to night in total awe of how close those coyotes really were to you. If you haven't been there it might sound foolish and I can not well articulate the full effect it had on me. But I know from experience that the young boy in the OP's video will cherish the times he spent with his father while spearfishing and diving.

 

[AfterDark]

As someone that would like to get into spearfishing later down the road I find this thread interesting. Both sides of the discussion have made interesting points and shared individual views on the issue.

As a avid hunter (on land) I have been asked by several people why I find "killing animals" fun. Often I find it difficult to explain to them that I don't find "killing" fun (if I did I could "hunt" in my .5 acre backyard). Hunting a wild creature is an experience like non other. I have never harvested an animal that I did not respect as one of God's creations. All life is precious and deserves respect, even if its an invasive species. Our post modern society has an option not to personally kill for their dinner and that's fine.

If you were not brought up spearfishing, hunting, fishing ect. you might find it strange and distasteful. But my best memories as a young boy were made in the early hours of the day, watching the wild brush of South Texas come alive while sitting beside my father. Or watching evening turn to night in total awe of how close those coyotes really were to you. If you haven't been there it might sound foolish and I can not well articulate the full effect it had on me. But I know from experience that the young boy in the OP's video will cherish the times he spent with his father while spearfishing and diving.

Thankfully we are still free to experience this and pass it on to our chldren and grandchildren.....for now.

 

[Deep South Divers]

Typical reefs a couple miles South of the Palm Beach Inlet where people dive to see healthy reef with no nutrient loading as found by an inlet --->
[video=youtube_share;q0W2VO5fbRw]http://youtu.be/q0W2VO5fbRw?hd=1[/video]

Gorgeous. A very happy and balanced reef. Thank you for sharing that. It's great to see.

I don't have much to share by comparison, since I really don't shoot pics or vids anymore unless they're working dives and the clients have requested it for documentation purposes... But I do have a video shot with a simple 3mp digital camera (without strobes) around 15 miles offshore here in SC, in about 100' of water, about seven years ago. At the time, the technology was top-of-the-line... 3mp fully digital video was like "Wow." Unfortunately, it can't compare to the quality of your video (and awesome editing), but it at least shows the health of the reefs. Not much has changed recently... Maybe it's even a little MORE full of life, actually.



Very healthy. I love to see this.

---------- Post added April 15th, 2012 at 11:00 PM ----------

Found another couple to share, in case anyone's interested... Equally old. They seem "greened out," but that's really the color of the water... The camera's accurate. It's caused by a very healthy bloom of phytoplankton (microscopic plant life) in the water... That, and the depth, in the absence of red light as we all learned in our OW classes.

I suppose that our cameras today would probably do a better job white balancing and keeping everything from being so "greened." Maybe I'll head out there some time in the next week or two and take some shots with a GoPro and a strobe.





Love to see lots of life.

 

[VooDooGasMan]

If ya think about it it is no different than watching the kids that were reeling in fish yesterday. Spearfishing is more expensive for most and most will never ever even get to try this.

Dump and his kid are very fortunate to share this. Especially being in Florida where there are actually fish to spear. where as I only have a couple of different kinds of fish that have some meat on them and a short season, so I must spear all I can and freeze for a year till next season. Although I have so many happy hours that it goes quick as seafood is so good when next to the water.

The young spearo will achieve a better and faster task loading than just a diver, once they have started they learn to put fish on stringer, reload speargun, carry a float, do video of spearing, defend predators wanting there booty. Also doing this in current swift area's. It is very simple to to this as you seen in dumps video. Then while your down you also collect scallops, mussels, crab, etc, for some great seafood meals.

Once the young spearo has mastered it they are so far beyond the diving skills you can take in any class, and obviously you can learn from the internet and here on scubaboard, the only way to gain skills is by actually spearfishing.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

....3) When I train children to scuba dive I always advise the parents to never go diving with just the child and themselves. i.e. never leave the child with the responsibility of being a buddy to the adult. It is simply not fair. Hell, the child couldn't even sign their own releases and now we ask them to take adult responsibility for another diver! The dive should be with at least two adults in attendance. With an activity such as spear fishing one of the adults should not be involved in that, just there to concentrate on being a buddy, and remind the ones with spears not to wander too far apart.

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When I train my child to scuba dive, I teach them to be a good buddy and to be able to handle themselves AND provide meaningful assistance in an emergency.

I think the video demonstrates that the 13 yr old was able to do just that.

Is your directive to "never dive (alone) with a child", something that PADI now promotes or is it your own opinion/recommendation? I see you are listed as a PADI Course Director..

 

[Sorrows]

When I train my child to scuba dive, I teach them to be a good buddy and to be able to handle themselves AND provide meaningful assistance in an emergency...

I think the child in the video has been given a tremendous gift--that sense of competency, that he can do something and do it well. This was something my own son learned from diving--and UW photography--at an early age. And I have dived with my son--alone--when he was about that age, although obviously we weren't spearfishing.

However, your comment makes me a bit uncomfortable because it smacks of hubris--and you know, when you exhibit hubris, the gods just want to smack you down. Seriously, it seems a lot of responsibility to put on the slender shoulders of a boy who hasn't even reached puberty yet. He's not your equal--not physically, not intellectually, and not emotionally--and to expect him to be, to demand that he be, is, IMHO, unwise--even if you did train him yourself. What, does he always do everything just the way you've told him, because, if true, he would be the most unusual 13-year old boy that ever lived. In a few years that can and will all change--quite dramatically; one day he'll beat you at arm-wrestling and then he'll remind you of where you left the keys, etc. etc. Sunrise, sunset, and all that.

---------- Post added April 26th, 2012 at 06:17 PM ----------

Wouldn't the DM show you the hog fish after he got it on the boat? They look the same after being speared except for the hole.

That IS a joke, right?