Peacock Line

[H2Andy]

Yes a T at pothole It runs up to the opening so lets swim past it. Intro divers are not to do traverses, jumps gaps, T's or complex navigation

fair enough, those are the rules, and I try to follow them to the best of my
understanding. but could you show me where in the NSS-CDS standards it says
qualified single tank intro divers are not to go past T's?

the relevant NSS-CDS standards say:

--linear penetration only
--dives limited to a singular passageway
--no jumps
--no gaps to secondary passageways
--no traverses
--no complex navigation or dive plans
--dives to begin and end at same point
--no restrictions

so where in these categories does the "T" at Pothole fall, in your opinion,
that single-tank intro. divers shouldn't go past it?

that seems to me to be the question Simon and i are confused on, and which we
would appreciate guidance on. while your post is full of knowledge, it seems to
leave us still in the "dark"

 

[Jason B]

A diver with a good attitude doesn't need good skills to stay alive

bold statement there....

EDIT- I just re-read your post and I see what you were getting at. My bad, never-mind.

Jason

 

[Dan Gibson]

In my opinion, it falls under both singular passageway and no complex navigation. I realize it might not seem that complicated, but loose the viz and it becomes easy to take the wrong turn at a T if you don't place markers or know how to use them. To me it falls under the "no direction decisions" should be made. You go in and go out the same way at this level.

fair enough, those are the rules, and I try to follow them to the best of my
understanding. but could you show me where in the NSS-CDS standards it says
qualified single tank intro divers are not to go past T's?

the relevant NSS-CDS standards say:

--linear penetration only
--dives limited to a singular passageway
--no jumps
--no gaps to secondary passageways
--no traverses
--no complex navigation or dive plans
--dives to begin and end at same point
--no restrictions

so where in these categories does the "T" at Pothole fall, in your opinion,
that single-tank intro. divers shouldn't go past it?

that seems to me to be the question Simon and i are confused on, and which we
would appreciate guidance on. while your post is full of knowledge, it seems to
leave us still in the "dark"

 

[Dan Gibson]

AHHHHH. That felt good. May I have another?

You want to get flamed

ok...
if that isn't the most beyong the pale place to stick a line...You just can't teach pigs to sing. Now if we're finished watching the trailor park inmates show off their pink snorkels maybe we can get back to discussing how to do this stuff right

.

 

[OneBrightGator]

In my opinion, it falls under both singular passageway and no complex navigation. I realize it might not seem that complicated, but loose the viz and it becomes easy to take the wrong turn at a T if you don't place markers or know how to use them. To me it falls under the "no direction decisions" should be made. You go in and go out the same way at this level.

What if an Intro diver comes upon someone else's jump, or finds one on his exit? How to deal with T's in the line needs to be covered in Intro because if they do any amount of diving after the class they will run into them in one form or another.

 

[MikeFerrara]

What if an Intro diver comes upon someone else's jump, or finds one on his exit?

Simple. Just wait til they come back and pull the jump. Sheesh! Level with us Ben. That was meant as an April fools question wasn't it?

 

[H2Andy]

In my opinion, it falls under both singular passageway and no
complex navigation. I realize it might not seem that complicated, but loose the viz
and it becomes easy to take the wrong turn at a T if you don't place markers or know
how to use them.

you might recall i suggested that Simon place a maker on the exit side of the T.

also, i don't see how it's not a single passaway. you just stick to the gold
line on your way back, in zero vis, and you're golden. i would, however,
put a marker on the exit side just in case.

i don't see how this is complex navigation. you're just following the gold line,
and you're just going to come back along the gold line.

i would certainly be open to an explanation of how it's either

 

[GDI]

T's are a preliminary to complex navigation. And in fact T, jumps, and gaps need to be first discussed at the cavern level as information. A example to justify this would be a line coming in from the Eye at Ginnie joining onto the Main Line from the Ear or from the main line of the ear going to the eye or into the catacombs. All jumps form a T

Another aspect and limitation of Cavern and Intro is NO deco diving. Too often divers are so focused on the 1/6 or 1/3 gas rule that they pay little if any attention to the time factor. If a cave diver were to adhere to this in addtion to everything else, the diver would as an example, check their time staus at the point of deepest depth, the time would limit their penetration, as would their gas supply. Intro divers are thus limited in such a way as to build their awareness of the cave environment and to aviod deco dives. For the most part in Peacock this deco obligation possibility is avoided due to it's realtive shallow depths. In a system such as Manatee or even Ginnie this will (should) be a concern. If it takes the diver 5 minutes to secure the reel to the gold line then that diver will only have 15 minutes of penetration and exit (subject to table or computer used as well as their gas consumption). That is 7.5 minutes in and 7.5 minutes out and starting to ascend.

Part of the developmental of awareness is for the diver to identify those sections of passage that would have side passages ( ie jumps, double arrows)

The fact that OW divers are not permitted into the Peacock 1 entrance is no excuse for a failure to follow established protocols. What we say one thing and do another because they aren't looking or can't look?

Orange Grove does permit OW Divers and Like Ginnie the lines are back where they should be.

Also considering that cavern divers are minimally different in how they are equiped compared to open water divers (no redundant reg, only two lights required and a single tank not even a din valve ) they are in themselves the reason that the gold lines need to be back at least 200 feet from the surface. Out of sight out of temtation. Cavern Divers are permitted into Peacock 1

 

[H2Andy]

T's are a preliminary to complex navigation. And in fact T, jumps, and gaps need to be first discussed at the cavern level as information. A example to justify this would be a line coming in from the Eye at Ginnie joining onto the Main Line from the Ear or from the main line of the ear going to the eye or into the catacombs. All jumps form a T

right... but the obligation of the single tank intro. diver is to begin and end the dive
at the same place... so if i go in, i can't follow the T away from the gold line in the
example you have cited here; i have to stick to the gold line and return to the
Ear or the Eye, whichever i started from.

that's not the issue here. if i stick to the gold line, and go in and out at the same place (i.e. at the main cavern), how is going past the the T at Peacock while still following the gold line a violation of NSS-CDS standards, which i am bound to follow?

that is my question.

 

[GDI]

right... but the obligation of the single tank intro. diver is to begin and end the dive
at the same place... so if i go in, i can't follow the T away from the gold line in the
example you have cited here; i have to stick to the gold line and return to the
Ear or the Eye, whichever i started from.

that's not the issue here. if i stick to the gold line, and go in and out at the same place (i.e. at the main cavern), how is going past the the T at Peacock while still following the gold line a violation of NSS-CDS standards, which i am bound to follow?

that is my question.

Andy it is the obligation of any intro cave diver single or double tanks to travel only the main line in and the same way out. The issue is not the T's as formed by a jump at double arrows. You would simply go past them and make the same return path as you said. Provided that you don't make any turns onto them then you are not in violation of your standards, remember I said a preliminary to complex navigation. The distance to Pothole from Peacock 1 is 500 feet penetration. No problem here. Going from Peacock 1 to pothole is a traverse. Pothole is not the main issue at Peacock. The issue is the status of the lines deeper into the system and the lines coming directly from the OW entance. There is no real conservation going on here the passages have seen more abuse since the lines were changed. Lacking skill of divers and further penetration of those pushing their certification limits contributes to this damage. The old line system acted as a safe guard against this kind of damage. It forced divers to have to develop their skills and environmental awareness better. Reread what I wrote i also commented on Cavern divers. This thread has taken a look at only the intro diver. The problem is bigger than just that level of certification