Peacock Line

[simbrooks]

The only place I've noticed a problem with the number of lines is the crevice droping down to the pothole line. Space is limited and there isn't much you can do about it...except that there a back way to get there without going down the crevice. I've never seen any one else use it and we've always had it all to ourselves. It requires sort of a long primary run and a jump but it's kind of neat.

I was going to ask you about this "back way" until i saw the jump part.... I guess its off the side somewhere? Maybe the pothole line could start just above the crevice, where the sign is IMO is beyond the daylight zone, but that is something else altogether.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I was going to ask you about this "back way" until i saw the jump part.... I guess its off the side somewhere? Maybe the pothole line could start just above the crevice, where the sign is IMO is beyond the daylight zone, but that is something else altogether.

You don't really have to do it as a jump. It's the back way down to the well. I guess I said jump because I've jumped from the pothole line to the well line but not the other way around and I've gone streight from the cavern to the well line. Does that make sence?

 

[simbrooks]

You don't really have to do it as a jump. It's the back way down to the well. I guess I said jump because I've jumped from the pothole line to the well line but not the other way around and I've gone streight from the cavern to the well line. Does that make sence?

Just checking the map and there appears to be a large opening either side of a rock, the regular way to the left of it is the sharp drop, the other looks like you head off towards the well, but dont go much further past the single feature before heading left and rejoining around the 65ft depth mark, looks like only another 40-50ft max - or is that part of the drop that i didnt fully investigate and in fact you are heading off well towards the well going through something narrow, taking a narrow passage that rejoins about 200 feet penetration (the pdf i have shows that they dont necessarily connect which makes me think its a bit narrow in there)? Here is the map i am checking out.

 

[PacerFan577]

Having been to pothole numerous times, I might be able to help out on the light question.

Light is normally visible from Pothole if you go to the middle of the tunnel and look up. I wasn't able to see light from the main line. You only need to go about 5-10 feet away from the wall to see it, but those few feet make a difference.

Going up to surface in pothole it is quite tight, and you can plan on nearly zeroing out vis on the mainline from all of the particulate that'll fall into the system.

 

[scubafool]

I'm not sure it's just about not being proficient with the use of a reel. It's also about just being plain profficient with buoyancy control and that includes task loading at the same time. I've seen many diver's there that have no business in the cavern zone, much less the cave. It seems like it's one of the dumbing down areas. Got money, have card.

Yes, but the fact is that the cave instructors are passing these people, & it seems to me that the UTC is left to deal with the mess. The only thing that they can do is put a bandaid on the problem by making the line course as safe as possible for the divers and the cave. I am not saying that this is a 100% instructor created problem, as it is impossible for an instructor to control a diver's actions once they pass the course. However, these "cave divers" bought, I mean got, their card somewhere.

A cave instructor once quoted to me:
"I personally feel that the Gold lines to open water are simply an excuse for bad training. Instead of fixing the problem,(making better cave divers with better buoyancy), they are trying to keep folks from having to run reels. I am very saddened to see that what used to be the best trained most elite group of divers in the world, is now one of the worst."

If an instructor were to use the fact that the line at P1 runs all the way to OW as a reason to not stress reelwork in their classes, then I would say that said instructor was the root cause of the problem. An instructor with such a viewpoint will find a way to cut corners & turn out poor divers no matter what you do with the goldline.

Needless to say this instructor was very disappointed with the decision to bring the lines out into OW. I just happen to agree with him.

There really isn't that good of a reason no to cut them back and use the reel. Some say there would be a web of lines. Only if people don't learn to run them properly (i.e. experience) and learn to deal with line ettiquette when someone else is in the system. One can also argue, too many groups at once isn't good either. Can you imagine how bad viz would be in the Waterhole tunnel if more than a couple of teams were in there at the same time. Maybe people should use some common sense and wait for a team to exit before causing a big traffic jam.

The way I see the situation, there really isn't that good of a reason to change the placement of the lines from the way they are at present, either.

btw, this is a pet peeve of mine. When you are the first person in the system, don't tie into the end of the primary line. Leave some space for teams to follow. The second team ties in behind the first, not in front. It's really hard to do that when the first line crowds the end of the line.

I certainly hope no one needs to have explained to them that you run your line under the first teams and not above. Also, please run your line near the side of the tunnel if possible, not straight down the middle. Maybe this is why people complain about the nasty spider webs. It's poor line placement. Beginning cave divers need as much practice as they can to learn how to read the cave and place the line optimally. Not running a reel just cheats these divers out of this learning process.

Now THIS is the real fix to the problem. More experienced & proficient divers mentoring & offering advice to the newbies. That could cure a lot of bad habits.

Thanks much for offering up your veiwpoints & the reasoning behind them. I appreciate the chance to examine the situation & my opinions from a different perspective.

 

[Dan Gibson]

True. Some of the instructors are the primary problem in IMO. I have no idea how to fix it short of taking away instructor ratings.

The bandaid bettter not apply during the class. I sort of wonder if it has or is beeing used in lieu of proper training. Anyone ever see students not running the reel?

I actually read on another board where one person doesn't like running a reel because they like to have fun on the dive and placing a reel takes away from that time. I sure hope that person was joking. If fun means nothing more than shaving time off the entrance to go for distance, that's a person who really doesn't need to be cave diving IMO. Besides, what's not fun about running a reel. There isn't much about the dive I don't find fun.

I was really expecting for someone to flame me for my advice on the proper place to tie in the primary reel.

Yes, but the fact is that the cave instructors are passing these people, & it seems to me that the UTC is left to deal with the mess. The only thing that they can do is put a bandaid on the problem by making the line course as safe as possible for the divers and the cave. I am not saying that this is a 100% instructor created problem, as it is impossible for an instructor to control a diver's actions once they pass the course. However, these "cave divers" bought, I mean got, their card somewhere.



If an instructor were to use the fact that the line at P1 runs all the way to OW, then I would say that said instructor was the root cause of the problem. An instructor with such a viewpoint will find a way to cut corners & turn out poor divers no matter what you do with the goldline.



The way I see the situation, there really isn't that good of a reason to change the placement of the lines from the way they are at present, either.



Now THIS is the real fix to the problem. More experienced & proficient divers mentoring & offering advice to the newbies. That could cure a lot of bad habits.

Thanks much for offering up your veiwpoints & the reasoning behind them. I appreciate the chance to examine the situation & my opinions from a different perspective.

 

[Mark Vlahos]

Anyone ever see students not running the reel?

I just finished my full cave last week and we did a couple of dives at Peacock. My instructor was GDI, the person who started this thread. He did have me run a line from the entrance (the wall beneath the steps) to a postition just further into the cave than the grim reaper sign. We did this on all dives. It makes sense, it is safe, and lets face it running a reel is not that hard. We dove the system as if the line started at the sign. The fact that it is run so close to the entrance was not a factor for me because I simply ignored it until the sign. I tried to keep my line a little off to the right, not crossing the gold line.

Now all I need to do is get relaxed enough to get that SAC rate down to what it is for normal recreational dives. I was able to make Olesen on thirds, both via the Peanut tunnel jumping to the crossover tunnel, and the pothole tunnel, but not further. I know it will come with time and experience so I am not overly concerned.

Mark Vlahos

 

[MikeFerrara]

I was really expecting for someone to flame me for my advice on the proper place to tie in the primary reel.

You want to get flamed :06:

ok...
if that isn't the most beyong the pale place to stick a line...You just can't teach pigs to sing. Now if we're finished watching the trailor park inmates show off their pink snorkels maybe we can get back to discussing how to do this stuff right .

 

[GDI]

The origin of the gold lines starting back at the Grim reaper signs was to prevent those from going further into the cave without correct training. Somewhere down the line (sorry for the pun) the idea came in that if the gold lines were ran to the OW then there would not be such a spider nest of reels near the opening and this would result in better cave conservation. Ok this might be acceptable for those weekends and days of high traffic but it has led to a increase in cave diver laziness and failing line protocol, I could at one time accuse Ginnie of this same mind set.

Yes some instructors may have contributed to this, thank GOD none that I know personally.

I can see in this thread and a few others those who choose to ignor safety (Accident Analysis) and the chance to perfect their skills and for what a few minutes of time so that they can get on with the dive. These divers really are not what I would consider proficient cave divers and have no place within the cave systems. A true cave diver, any true diver for that matter even when not in a cave system will continue to practise those skills to perfect their sport/ activity/past time. This system Peacock is not and should not be an example of where one system becomes the standard for all of them, it is at present however a representation of a conflict of training protocol and reality. A accident in waiting....

Divers are penetrating further than what the standards (as designed) are permitting. They begin to interpret those standards as it suits them. Yes a T at pothole It runs up to the opening so lets swim past it. Intro divers are not to do traverses, jumps gaps, T's or complex navigation, deco, they are limited to rule of 1/3's on single and 1/6 on dbles. Pothole in it's old line format was a traverse technically but it was also the end of the line for intro divers, it was a GAP. This new connection has caused intro divers to push further into the system placing themselves in violation of standards and at a greater risk. The complacency of what has began to develop because of this one system has carried over into other systems. Manatee with the line hidden behind some rocks just next to the warning sign has had many divers ignor the issue of running a primary reel, siting that they can clearly see the open water zone from the end of the gold line. Some Intro divers have been discovered to come in from Freidman's Sink and made the traverse to Catfish hole again siting that it is a single continued gold line travel from one hole to the next, passing under Sues Sink enroute, "Really" I say and somehow they forget that Freidman's Sink is a Syphon System. And they have done this with no exiting line preplaced at Catfish because they dive Ginnie and Peacock with no lines all the time. A little bit beyond the Intro to Cave level wouldn't you say?

Congrats to Ginnie for moving the gold line to the floor right at the Grim Reaper sign.

I hear the phrase An EXCEPTION TO THE RULE? this is BS, there are NO EXCEPTIONS. And Hey lets not talk about the deco obligation they incurred making the Manatee dive, their lack of breathing gas is not MY CONCERN (or is it?).

As Scubafool stated The instructor has no control over what their student does after certification, this is true. The instructor does have the responsibility of instilling limitations and attitudes of their students as well as a skill base.

To me cave divers and I mean cave divers who ignor the rules of the game and take oppotunities not to practise their skills are no better than OW divers who are untrained. Example my thread about two divers at Paradise Springs comes to mind. It makes no sense to me to contribute the time and efforts to go through a full cave class and not continue to practise those skills if for no other reason to maintain if not perfect their profficiency.

I do not see that the current line placement is a method of conservation to the cave system. I do not see that it is a means of establishing and encouraging the correct protocol of line running and reel work. What I do see is divers penetrating further then what their skill is suitable for, mis-application of safety guidelines and poor observation of ones certification limits, I see divers becomeing lazy and unproficient in their skills thus causing further damage to the often more fragile sections of the inner cave system passages. The very thing that distinguished a cave diver from all others is the quest to master their skills in all aspects.

Just my two cents worth

 

[scubafool]

OMG, what in the heck am I thinking, disputing with an instructor who I am considering taking a class with? Promise you won't drown my arse?

The origin of the gold lines starting back at the Grim reaper signs was to prevent those from going further into the cave without correct training. Somewhere down the line (sorry for the pun) the idea came in that if the gold lines were ran to the OW then there would not be such a spider nest of reels near the opening and this would result in better cave conservation. Ok this might be acceptable for those weekends and days of high traffic but it has led to a increase in cave diver laziness and failing line protocol, I could at one time accuse Ginnie of this same mind set.

OK, I know that I am doomed to failure, but I will try anyhow. I am sure that you have already heard this, but I haven't seen you respond to it. Peacock IS a special case in that it is not open to OW divers, so a line ran to OW does not contain the same danger as it would at any of the Ginnie Springs controlled cave entrances.

Yes some instructors may have contributed to this, thank GOD none that I know personally.

I can see in this thread and a few others those who choose to ignor safety (Accident Analysis) and the chance to perfect their skills and for what a few minutes of time so that they can get on with the dive. These divers really are not what I would consider proficient cave divers and have no place within the cave systems. A true cave diver, any true diver for that matter even when not in a cave system will continue to practise those skills to perfect their sport/ activity/past time. This system Peacock is not and should not be an example of where one system becomes the standard for all of them, it is at present however a representation of a conflict of training protocol and reality. A accident in waiting....

Divers are penetrating further than what the standards (as designed) are permitting. They begin to interpret those standards as it suits them. Yes a T at pothole It runs up to the opening so lets swim past it. Intro divers are not to do traverses, jumps gaps, T's or complex navigation, deco, they are limited to rule of 1/3's on single and 1/6 on dbles. Pothole in it's old line format was a traverse technically but it was also the end of the line for intro divers, it was a GAP. This new connection has caused intro divers to push further into the system placing themselves in violation of standards and at a greater risk. The complacency of what has began to develop because of this one system has carried over into other systems. Manatee with the line hidden behind some rocks just next to the warning sign has had many divers ignor the issue of running a primary reel, siting that they can clearly see the open water zone from the end of the gold line. Some Intro divers have been discovered to come in from Freidman's Sink and made the traverse to Catfish hole again siting that it is a single continued gold line travel from one hole to the next, passing under Sues Sink enroute, "Really" I say and somehow they forget that Freidman's Sink is a Syphon System. And they have done this with no exiting line preplaced at Catfish because they dive Ginnie and Peacock with no lines all the time. A little bit beyond the Intro to Cave level wouldn't you say?

Congrats to Ginnie for moving the gold line to the floor right at the Grim Reaper sign.

I hear the phrase An EXCEPTION TO THE RULE? this is BS, there are NO EXCEPTIONS. And Hey lets not talk about the deco obligation they incurred making the Manatee dive, their lack of breathing gas is not MY CONCERN (or is it?).

As Scubafool stated The instructor has no control over what their student does after certification, this is true. The instructor does have the responsibility of instilling limitations and attitudes of their students as well as a skill base.

I would like to say here that I think that ATTITUDE is the most important of the above. A diver with a good attitude doesn't need good skills to stay alive, their attitude of "You know, the dive that you are talking about doing sounds like fun, but I don't think that my skills are up to it" is what will keep them alive. Conversely, the attitude "My instructor said that my bouyancy & reelwork were really good, so I don't really need to worry about staying within my certification limitations" is what will get you killed.

To me cave divers and I mean cave divers who ignor the rules of the game and take oppotunities not to practise their skills are no better than OW divers who are untrained. Example my thread about two divers at Paradise Springs comes to mind. It makes no sense to me to contribute the time and efforts to go through a full cave class and not continue to practise those skills if for no other reason to maintain if not perfect their profficiency.

I do not see that the current line placement is a method of conservation to the cave system. I do not see that it is a means of establishing and encouraging the correct protocol of line running and reel work. What I do see is divers penetrating further then what their skill is suitable for, mis-application of safety guidelines and poor observation of ones certification limits, I see divers becomeing lazy and unproficient in their skills thus causing further damage to the often more fragile sections of the inner cave system passages. The very thing that distinguished a cave diver from all others is the quest to master their skills in all aspects.

Just my two cents worth

I agree that the current line placement is not a means of establishing a mechanism of encouraging proper line protocol. I also don't think that it should be configured to BE a mechanism of encouraging proper line protocol. That is the task of the instructor cadre in specific & the cave diving community in general.

Eveyone please note that I am not debating the issue of T's & gaps in the Peacock system, as I am totally unqualified to comment on those issues. I am specifically addressing the P1 goldline extension to OW.

This is an edit: We are both dirty, & I am loving it. :