Peacock Fatality Accident Analysis

[Superlyte27]

I'm not saying I'm a saint. And yes, I used to break rules, until one time a trust me dive almost killed me. By some people's standards, I probably still break rules like Drysuit Cert. (there was no such thing when I started diving a drysuit).

And for those of you getting your panties in a bunch, I may not be talking about you. I'm talking about the people who this very week or month have broken these same rules but are trying to crucify John's group for it.

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is as this time. Is it to make yourselves feel better by making John feel worse. Oh, she died because of blah blah blah. And I NEVER do blah blah blah, so I can't die? Because quite honestly, we've gone beyond accident analysis. Half of this thread is assumption and conjecture. No one is going to argue that rules got broken and that led to a death. We got it, move on.

You can't see the irony of people complaining that John and Pat made visual jumps, dove beyond their certification, violated 1/6's and did circuits; and the same people who are chastising are people who are doing some or all of these very things themselves. If you haven't dove with me, assume I'm not talking about you.

Ultimately
Here it is in a nutshell. John and Pat broke the rules. Not just one, but a few. While I think experience in Peacock counts for alot (and they had many dives in Peacock), Pat ran into problems that a Full Cave cert might have saved her from. She's dead. It's tragic. I feel terrible for John. I applaud him for making the right decision and surviving. But, the fact is this... If you obey ALL five rules of cave diving, your chances of dying are very very slim.

 

[liuk3]

One thing that strikes me as funny is comments like I dove above my training certification level but was with a highly experienced mentor, so that makes it ok. Mentors and experience have been invaluable to my own dive development, but I wouldn't replace the formal technical dive training I received for it. I'm not saying that formal instruction is the end all be all, but I have found it invaluable for myself and fortunate to have found my instructors who have since become mentors. If you're being stupid, at least be honest with yourself that you're doing something stupid and be accountable for the potential consequences. Or, better yet just don't do it. And yes, I'm not without sin myself. In the end, I can only control my own actions and help impact those of my team. If people want to pursue a certain type of advanced diving, they need to take personal responsibility and accountability. Condolences out to the family and friends of the deceased.

 

[ianr33]

Formal training is not needed for everything. I've never taken a sidemount, DPV, or stage course, but I do all 3.

IMHO there are too many courses these days. I dive dry,sidemount,sometimes with stages and sometimes solo. Have no formal training in any of them and most people have no problem with that, whereas most everyone will condemn an intro diver doing a jump.
Maybe its not totally clear to every diver which courses are truly required and which are optional/fluff?

One thing that strikes me as funny is comments like I dove above my training certification level but was with a highly experienced mentor, so that makes it ok.

Just to play Devils Advocate, what if the mentor happens to be an instructor who is diving for fun rather than being paid for a course?

Ultimately it all comes down to good judgment and personal responsibility.

My NACD workbook states that at Full Cave I am limited to 130 feet depth. Am I breaking the rules diving deeper than that on trimix?? I think not. Others may disagree.

 

[liuk3]

Just to play Devils Advocate, what if the mentor happens to be an instructor who is diving for fun rather than being paid for a course?

Ultimately it all comes down to good judgment and personal responsibility.

My NACD workbook states that at Full Cave I am limited to 130 feet depth. Am I breaking the rules diving deeper than that on trimix?? I think not. Others may disagree.

My point was not to pass judgment one way or the other. Rather, just to make people take a second to think about what they are doing. If you read my post above, I fully understand that formal training may not be the only way to learn. I've just personally gotten a lot out of my own formal technical training. There's also no guarantees that an instructor or mentor might not be a train wreck themselves. I've seen technical dive instructors who frankly scare the bejesus out of me. I've also seen people try to learn how to dive on the internet or figure it out on their own which also scares me as well.

I just find it funny that people might be so quick to criticize others when in fact they are likely doing no better in breaking whatever training rules they themselves have received. Obviously, the most conservative and likely best decision is to not break whatever training restrictions or rules you've been taught, but ultimately it all comes down to good judgment and personal responsibility. People need to take accountability.

 

[cerich]

cavern, intro to cave, appentice, full cave, cave 1, 2 or 3 or cave instructor, making visual gaps and jumps is stupid and also FAR too common.

Diving above certification can be stupid..or in many cases it is simply that the persons skill and experience has lead them there.

 

[Dive-aholic]

IMHO there are too many courses these days. I dive dry,sidemount,sometimes with stages and sometimes solo. Have no formal training in any of them and most people have no problem with that, whereas most everyone will condemn an intro diver doing a jump.
Maybe its not totally clear to every diver which courses are truly required and which are optional/fluff?

It's difficult to tell these days, especially when you don't know what you don't know. I know there are cave divers out there with no formal training in stage diving that are diving 1/3s on their back gas and 1/2 + 200 on their stages because they "heard" that was the way to do it. I know people who are diving DPVs in a cave and have NO idea how to plan gas management for dives like that. So they go out and do a bunch of dives like that and are lucky and survive all of them and then become mentors for newer cave divers. Eventually you have a bunch of people doing the same thing. Apparently, someone who wasn't a cave instructor taught John this circuit and told him it was okay to do visual jumps there. John did it with this person and a week later passes it on to Pat. John wasn't at fault. He learned something from someone he thought knew better, but obviously didn't. I have no idea who taught John to do that circuit doing visual jumps, but I'm very willing to put at least part of the blame for this on that person.

The thing about instruction is there are standards that instructors have to follow. There are things we must present in a course. Yes, there are instructors out there that teach courses that aren't worth a damn. But at the cave and technical level, I don't think there are many of those. The process to get a cave and/or technical instructor rating is much more difficult than the process to get a recreational instructor rating. Most agencies require internships with more than one instructor, and all of the ones I know of require an instructor institute or exam. So if you take a course you're chances of learning the right thing are greatly increased. And if you do the right research on instructors before you commit to one you can almost be guaranteed that you will learn the right thing. Unfortunately, talking to former students isn't always the best research either. Most students think their instructor is the best. The right research not only involves talking to other students, but also talking to other divers, and asking the potential instructor the right questions.

 

[Superlyte27]

Apparently, someone who wasn't a cave instructor taught John this circuit and told him it was okay to do visual jumps there. John did it with this person and a week later passes it on to Pat. John wasn't at fault. He learned something from someone he thought knew better, but obviously didn't. I have no idea who taught John to do that circuit doing visual jumps, but I'm very willing to put at least part of the blame for this on that person.

Was this really apparent? Do we know any of this paragraph to be true? Or is it just more speculation and another fork in the road that will allow more assumption and conjecture for the next 5, 10 or 20 pages on this forum.

Guys, quit guessing. Your speculation, assumptions and conjecture don't serve any good purpose here. Stick to the facts. We don't learn from the myths, unproven guesses, etc. I'll bet a flashlight no one "taught" john this circuit and told him it was ok to do visual jumps.

 

[Cave Diver]

Guys, quit guessing. Your speculation, assumptions and conjecture don't serve any good purpose here. Stick to the facts. We don't learn from the myths, unproven guesses, etc.

I realize that you're pretty new to the forum so you're probably not aware how accident discussions run. I also understand that these were friends and that you have a personal investment in this.

But in the absence of concrete facts and evidence, a lot of theories, speculation and ideas get tossed out. Contrary to your belief some very good discussions and thoughts have come from a result of this which may end up saving someone elses life.

I'm sorry for the loss of your friend, I can only imagine how tough that must be. If you don't wish to participate in this type of discussion no one will fault you for that, but please don't ask us not to do so.

 

[Cave Diver]

Apparently, someone who wasn't a cave instructor taught John this circuit and told him it was okay to do visual jumps there. John did it with this person and a week later passes it on to Pat. John wasn't at fault. He learned something from someone he thought knew better, but obviously didn't. I have no idea who taught John to do that circuit doing visual jumps, but I'm very willing to put at least part of the blame for this on that person.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy that reasoning. I spent a full day or so working with a reel during the cavern portion of my class. It was drilled into me how important that was because you must always maintain a continuous guideline to the surface.

If someone is taught this and then discards that information because someone else told them it was okay not to maintain a continuous guideline then I think that responsibility rests squarely on their own shoulders. Unless this other person held a gun to their head and made them do it, they should have told him "Screw off, I know better than that."

 

[TSandM]

I agree with Cave Diver.

I've been "guilty" of pushing my experience and training limits in some ways at some times -- but each time the "transgression" was proposed, I sat down and evaluated it against my own risk assessment, and decided whether I thought it was a reasonable thing to do. And, honestly, one thing these threads do is condition you to think, "If I get into trouble doing this, what are the online critics going to say about me?" Some things aren't unreasonable, and other things are going to get pounced on no matter what. Nobody will ever talk me into omitting a required guideline. It just won't happen.