Peacock Fatality Accident Analysis

[lamont]

Hey Green:

You ever make a visual jump? You ever dive a circuit without a continous guideline? And just so we're clear... what is your current level of certification.

In law school they taught us to never ask a question in court that we didn't already know the answer to.

That game you are playing there is stupid.

Diving over their level of training and failure to maintain a continuous guideline caused this fatality. Period. And it doesn't matter if the diver making that statement has ever broken those rules before. Everyone needs to stop breaking the rules, or we're going to keep reading reports like this.

Knock off the stupid games.

 

[Superlyte27]

Did you get to read that before I deleted it? I hope so.

 

[Superlyte27]

My main point is this...
I'm sick of hearing so many people sitting on their high horses in this forum about rules that were broken. Yup, I believe mistakes were made, and I believe that at least in part, those mistakes cost a life.

Guys, don't friggin lecture about these rules from your pedastal when I dive with you and you're breaking these exact same rules daily. I've practically had to beg some of you guys to put in reels at Peacock, Manatee, etc.

A guy on CDS said it best when he quoted "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Seriously if you guys are actively ignoring these rules, any of these rules, then get off your pedastals and shut your mouth. Plain and simple.

 

[Dive-aholic]

I believe most of the posters here have already stated they don't break the rules. I haven't seen anyone post they do visual jumps or even advocate them. Sounds to me like you probably do break the rules yourself, hopefully I'm wrong.

And to clarify, I don't do visual jumps. I don't dive beyond my training. I don't break gas management rules (I'm actually more conservative than 1/3s).

 

[ucfdiver]

My main point is this...
I'm sick of hearing so many people sitting on their high horses in this forum about rules that were broken. Yup, I believe mistakes were made, and I believe that at least in part, those mistakes cost a life.

Guys, don't friggin lecture about these rules from your pedastal when I dive with you and you're breaking these exact same rules daily. I've practically had to beg some of you guys to put in reels at Peacock, Manatee, etc.

A guy on CDS said it best when he quoted "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Seriously if you guys are actively ignoring these rules, any of these rules, then get off your pedastals and shut your mouth. Plain and simple.

The line in Peacock is within inches of open water. I could almost daisy chain 2 bolt snaps and that would be enough. Manatee is a cave where I think a primary reel makes sense.

I believe most of the posters here have already stated they don't break the rules.

To be fair, because nothing pisses me off worse than someone lying about what they've done while critiquing others, I'll confess what I've done.

1- I did jumps after about 40 intro dives. Some of those 40 were GUE 1/6ths rather than true 1/6ths. Went about 10-15 dives before apprentice diving 1/3rds without deco. I didn't sneak around with this. I went directly to my more experienced and full cave / c2 buddies and asked the proper procedure.
2- At apprentice, I stage dove. The main person I dove with took the c2 course (which covers staging directly) about 5 years ago, and since has several hundred cave dives. I still feel more comfy about how we did the gas math than how some stage diving courses handle it.
3- I'm currently DPV'ing without a DPV card. I've done about 25 scooter dives with someone who I'd almost consider an instructor to me. She's the first one I started talking to when I wanted to scooter, the one that helped tremendously with staging, etc.
4- I don't run a primary a few places. JB, Ginnie, Peacock are examples where I don't. Telford, HITW, Twin, Orange Grove, etc are examples where I do.
5- I did one visual jump. I did a visual to the river intrusion room. It felt like throwing a banana peel beside my grave and standing nearby. It saved very little time and cost a whole lot in the back of my head.

Excluding training (which I really don't think I broke, because I went to qualified mentors), the one time slip in judgment not running a jump reel, and not running a primary reel at some sites where I feel it's close enough, I've never broke rules.


I will add this. If I were NAUI Cave 1 solo diving, doing blind traverses, blind circuits, stage diving and doing decompression, I would be real careful what I say in public to avoid looking like a hypocrite.

 

[rjack321]

My main point is this...
I'm sick of hearing so many people sitting on their high horses in this forum about rules that were broken. Yup, I believe mistakes were made, and I believe that at least in part, those mistakes cost a life.

Guys, don't friggin lecture about these rules from your pedastal when I dive with you and you're breaking these exact same rules daily. I've practically had to beg some of you guys to put in reels at Peacock, Manatee, etc.

A guy on CDS said it best when he quoted "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Seriously if you guys are actively ignoring these rules, any of these rules, then get off your pedastals and shut your mouth. Plain and simple.

Well Saint Peter

• I have only skipped a primary once in JB - and I didn't like it and won't be repeating it.
• Didn't do jumps or any complex navigation before I was full cave. I did do a few Ts here and there which are allowed. Also a gap with my instructor (also allowed).
• Made a plan which would have broken my Cave1 gas limits once, but turns out those were revised at that time and we basically made a "new limits" plan without realizing it. (1/3rd of 2/3rds so 700psi in full AL80s)

I am full cave which included stages, also trimix, with a DPV cert. About 150 cave (or mine or wreck pen.) dives, 200+ trimix and 200+ DPV.

So does your holiness think I'm pure enough to comment on Intro divers breaking gas limits, circuits, and continuous guideline rules all on one dive? Or should I STFU and just leave the obvious to the IUCRR report?

 

[TSandM]

The only rule I have ever bent was the "stay on the mainline" rule at C1. And we bent it because we ran our own guideline from open water to a jump line, so we did not do a jump, we just ran a long primary line. I have always run a primary and I have always run a jump line. I am very occasionally diving stages, for which I don't actually have a card. I was taught HOW to use them in Cave 2, but provisionaled the class; my Full Cave class which I subsequently took did not include stages. My C1 instructor has no problem with me doing this and actually encouraged it on one dive in April.

I think diving above your training is something which should be carefully evaluated, but that people CAN grow into their dives with good mentoring. I think not running lines is beyond foolish, but as Marci has repeatedly observed, they would have pulled the lines had they been doing the circuit properly, anyway. I do think people who have a track record of panic while cave diving ought to think long and hard about whether it's something they should be doing.

 

[Cave Diver]

I've broken training.

I don't have a drysuit cert. I've used stage bottles but haven't taken a class in it. I've done wreck penetrations but I'm not wreck certified. I've done some dives that were above my level of training, but not above my level of understanding.

Having a c-card for something is not the be all, end all to everything.

But I still run lines, even in high flow systems like JB. I still use jump reels, even if the gap is less than a body length. I still mark my navigational decisions with a cookie, even if I *know* which way the exit is.

 

[lamont]

seriously, i think the fact that we seem to need to hold a confessional is godawfully stupid.

everyone's sins are now forgiven.

exceeding your training and not running a continuous guideline remains objectively stupid, no matter what anyone has done.

 

[Dive-aholic]

The line in Peacock is within inches of open water. I could almost daisy chain 2 bolt snaps and that would be enough. Manatee is a cave where I think a primary reel makes sense.


To be fair, because nothing pisses me off worse than someone lying about what they've done while critiquing others, I'll confess what I've done.

1- I did jumps after about 40 intro dives. Some of those 40 were GUE 1/6ths rather than true 1/6ths. Went about 10-15 dives before apprentice diving 1/3rds without deco. I didn't sneak around with this. I went directly to my more experienced and full cave / c2 buddies and asked the proper procedure.
2- At apprentice, I stage dove. The main person I dove with took the c2 course (which covers staging directly) about 5 years ago, and since has several hundred cave dives. I still feel more comfy about how we did the gas math than how some stage diving courses handle it.
3- I'm currently DPV'ing without a DPV card. I've done about 25 scooter dives with someone who I'd almost consider an instructor to me. She's the first one I started talking to when I wanted to scooter, the one that helped tremendously with staging, etc.
4- I don't run a primary a few places. JB, Ginnie, Peacock are examples where I don't. Telford, HITW, Twin, Orange Grove, etc are examples where I do.
5- I did one visual jump. I did a visual to the river intrusion room. It felt like throwing a banana peel beside my grave and standing nearby. It saved very little time and cost a whole lot in the back of my head.

Excluding training (which I really don't think I broke, because I went to qualified mentors), the one time slip in judgment not running a jump reel, and not running a primary reel at some sites where I feel it's close enough, I've never broke rules.


I will add this. If I were NAUI Cave 1 solo diving, doing blind traverses, blind circuits, stage diving and doing decompression, I would be real careful what I say in public to avoid looking like a hypocrite.

Formal training is not needed for everything. I've never taken a sidemount, DPV, or stage course, but I do all 3. In fact, I teach sidemount and staging, and soon DPV. Sometimes a good mentor or three are better than a 2 day course. The problem is knowing how to determine whether someone is a good mentor or just someone who thinks they know how to do it.