Past NDL. And then this???

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The above statement though is plainly wrong. You don't know our diving style you just assume...

1. 35 minutes of decompression says I'm right. The Inert Gas Fairy didn't suddenly appear and wave her magic wand to summon it... :D

2. Assumptions by an Advanced Trimix Instructor with 15+ years full-time technical diving/teaching experience are based on much more than you'd currently even think of considering... or probably your prospective nitrox instructor too.

I've seen quite a few 'diving styles' over the last quarter century. I don't think you're doing anything novel and unique that most experienced instructors/divers haven't seen before a thousand times.

3. What I'd consider aggressive recreational diving may be very different to what you'd guess I meant. I've seen plenty enough DCS hit divers over the years. When you're close to 9000 bend-free dives contact me and we'll talk it over then. :wink:

For now, I'm not going to talk algorithms and computers with you. No offense, but I don't empower denial.....and that's what I see.

The story is one of human factors.

Open your mind to that and the learning starts. The 'algorithm' issue is just chaff that clouds the necessary lesson.

The computer did its job perfectly. It kept you out of a recompression chamber. Why did it have to take that action?

If you wish to blame this on X , Y or Z algorithm... then do be my guest.....and if you're absolutely convinced it's only a modelling glitch, just ignore that deco obligation next time... see if you're right. :D (my advice: have the chamber on speed-dial).
 
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if he was diving air, nitrox would give an increased ndl so that he would possibly either have not picked up a deco obligation from repetitive dives or decreased an incurred obigation such that he wouldn't have run out of gas at 15 ft trying to clear an extended deco obligation

he clearly understood he had a deco obligation according to his computer, but did not have the gas to clear it.
Nitrox is not a silver bullet. If some one has established a behaviour of riding their computer, what would their expected result to be if they changed gas mixture? I would expect them to continue to ride their computer deeper with no change in the end result.

And it seems he did not fully understand his deco obligation as he stayed down and allowed it to get larger.
 
Would you consider posting an export of the dive from Subsurface so that people can see the actual dive?
 
Wow, lot's of new info to look at.

I'd like to comment in particular about this:



Thanks DevonDiver a lot for your time and effort to transfer your knowledge. The above statement though is plainly wrong. You don't know our diving style you just assume and this particular assumption is plainly wrong. You don't need to "routinely push NDL" to know that your computer is more conservative than others. And we didn't. Here is how I fount out:

As the newest diver of the group (it was my first ever dive vacation - the fellow divers were much more experienced) I was a bit too cautious. Hence, I did notice that while I was getting near NDL everybody else was relaxed, especially during the last dive of the day. Based on that I did discuss it with them and compared times. You don't need to be near or on the NDL to do that. At any moment of the last dive I'd see how much time they had compared to mine. And my computer was giving me consistently lower times. This happened more or less in all of the previous days on the last dive of each day. Based on that, and mainly to stick with the group, I mistakenly decided from the fourth day onward to relax a bit and stay near the NDL a bit more with the known results.
When doing group dives it is very important to NOT blindly rely on other divers computers. Maybe you were the most aggressive diver in the group? And do not realize it?

SB has multiple threads where a dive computer contradicts the divers recollection of a dive.

The group diving I commonly witness generally has a cluster of divers spread out about 10 feet or more in depth. This depth spread often gets larger when the cluster stops to look at something and everyone jockeys for position. I have noticed some divers routinely hang back and below the group. By the end of the day, Their nitrogen loading is significantly higher than the divers tend to float near the top of the cluster. Some divers shoot to the bottom faster and linger a bit longer on the way up. But they all did the "same" dive.
 
Would you consider posting an export of the dive from Subsurface so that people can see the actual dive?
It would make sense to post all dives from that day. That would provide some insight into the typical dive profiles of the group.
 
It would make sense to post all dives from that day. That would provide some insight into the typical dive profiles of the group.
To get the full picture we would need all the dives in the sequence, that's 4 days worth. As the OP dived the following day maybe we should see 5 days of dive profiles.

My agency (BSAC) recommends taking a day-off after 3 days of repeated diving. To allow micro bubbles to disparate. Additionally, we call the end of bottom-time when we get back to 6m, or the first stop.
 
Here are the logs for all the dives of that trip in subsurface xml format. Please rename the file to NDL.xml before use (SB didn't let me upload XML directly).
Unfortunately they contain only ascent alarms (another annoyance of this particular computer but I leave that for another thread) and nothing about deco alarms or NDL values calculated by the computer. Cressi PC interface software shows NDL, deco alarms etc but I guess it may regenerate them offline from the log data on the PC.
 

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Thanks DevonDiver a lot for your time and effort to transfer your knowledge. The above statement though is plainly wrong. You don't know our diving style you just assume and this particular assumption is plainly wrong. You don't need to "routinely push NDL" to know that your computer is more conservative than others. And we didn't. Here is how I fount out:

As the newest diver of the group (it was my first ever dive vacation - the fellow divers were much more experienced) I was a bit too cautious. Hence, I did notice that while I was getting near NDL everybody else was relaxed, especially during the last dive of the day. Based on that I did discuss it with them and compared times. You don't need to be near or on the NDL to do that. At any moment of the last dive I'd see how much time they had compared to mine. And my computer was giving me consistently lower times. This happened more or less in all of the previous days on the last dive of each day. Based on that, and mainly to stick with the group, I mistakenly decided from the fourth day onward to relax a bit and stay near the NDL a bit more with the known results.

Congratulations to you for posting this story, and by posting in a public forum, opening yourself up to criticism. But unfortunately, I think that you are more interested in "winning" the argument by coming up with an explanation that supports what you did, than you are with learning. And that's not good.

First of all, it is absolutely possible to get an "unexplained" hit. I had one. I did a chamber ride and stayed within NDLs. So if you think that if you had just gotten a more liberal computer then the magic bracelet would keep you safe, you are simply wrong.

More important is what Andy has been telling you. This discussion should have absolutely nothing to do with algorithms, nitrox, or "diving styles". It should be about understanding the basic idea behind computer diving. That idea is that while there are a lot of variables that the algorithm doesn’t account for (hydration, age, fitness, right to left shunts, etc..), it does track depth and time incredibly precisely. It makes calculations based on more data than you can ever hope to correctly guesstimate, especially after several days of frequent diving. The algorithms are very complex - it's not just like a liberal computer just does the same calculation as a conservative one, and then takes 10 minutes off of your NDL.

If you are going to dive a computer and it tells you that you have a deco obligation, you need to do that deco obligation. If you are lucky, you will have enough gas for that, since you didn’t plan to go into deco. If you don’t like that idea, then dive tables and square profiles. But if you want to take advantage of the “credit” that you get for time above maximum depth, then that’s the tradeoff.

You can get as many people here as you like to back you up, but it doesn’t change this fact: surfacing with an alarming computer that you “fix” by having the DM descend and clear the obligation, and then diving again, is simply terrible diving practice. I have no interest in looking at your profiles, because that misses the entire point. You don’t dive by constantly looking at spreadsheets of your last 6 dives and figuring out how you can be more clever than the dive computer. It’s not a legal case, where you can find some loophole that gets you out of jail.

I’m taking the time to write this not just for you, but for any other new divers reading this thread. Yes, you didn’t get bent - that’s great. But eventually, if you do things like ascend without clearing what the algorithm says is your deco obligation (taking into account ALL of details of ALL of your recent profiles), you may eventually draw the short straw.
 
stepfen, were you diving air or nitrox? if you were diving air, the easiest solution is to dive nitrox next time.

Why, because nitrox divers are more likely to follow a calculated ascent schedule? The OP said he ascended when he was "pretty close to NDL", then descended again to look at "something" and went into deco. That wouldn't happen with nitrox?
 
Congratulations to you for posting this story, and by posting in a public forum, opening yourself up to criticism. But unfortunately, I think that you are more interested in "winning" the argument by coming up with an explanation that supports what you did, than you are with learning. And that's not good.

I don't have any argument and nothing else to win about that case other than some knowledge for future reference. I did something very stupid and it's only me to blame.

The purpose of this post was basically to find out what I did wrong after I passed NDL. Thanks to you guys that's very clear to me now (I should have assented as soon as safely possible to do the deco stop).

Following this, I am interested to know why other divers didn't get anywhere near that. I understand that 2 or more divers during the same dive can have quite different profiles, but even subsurface with my exact same data was much more "gentle". Practically according to subsurface by the time I reached the deco depth (4m) even with my very slow ascent the deco obligation was gone - that's a huge difference compared to 35+ minutes deco.

That is what I am trying to understand here
 
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