Panic!!!

[Mantaray95616]

shallow water blackout

I'm sorry to hear about your friend. Shallow water blackout can happen very easily if you are unaware of the effects of hyperventilation. When spearfishing I used to wear a 10-12 Lb weightbelt. When surfacing I would tilt my head towards the surface to help maintain by bearings and concentration. I would also keep one hand on the quick-release buckle of my weightbelt, ready to ditch at the first sign of trouble. I had several friends spearfishing in close proximity to each other at all times; and a person topside who would ensure that the group did not wander too far apart when tracking a fish.

 

[CG43]

Hello FishWatcher 747

Great story but if a person has no fear of scuba or freediving I don't want you in my scuba group or as a buddy.

If you write ".... if a preson never has fear of scuba or freediving I don't want you in my scuba group..............." I will agree with you .
The no fear in my writing concerns only the example with all the data, so that each reader can form his own opinion on whether my assessment was correct or dangerous.
If the lake had been deeper than 25 m I probably wouldn't have done the dive.
I refused dives, canceled dives, rejected jobs and rejected buddies if the risk seemed too high to me.

 

[Mantaray95616]

fear of scuba or freediving

Are you always uncomfortable or afraid when you are underwater.

I hope you are are using the word "fear" out of context. Certainly there might be times when fear starts creeping in when you get into a difficult or dangerous situation. But if you are afraid of the underwater environment you should't be doing either.

I do agree however, that I would not want to dive with someone who does not respect the underwater environment and the inherent dangers that might be encountered.

 

[Mantaray95616]

Getting back to the subject of "Panic" Panic can turn into something worse.

A common cause of panic is not having air to breathe. An aready panicked diver, when a source of air becomes available to them from a buddy or elsewhere, can easily forget that you cannot breath in until you have first breathed out.

I used to put that up with "Remember to breath" when discussing the important rules of diving.

 

[CG43]

Hello Mantaray

Like You i don't like to quote complete long posts .
But you should have quoted my hole sentens for better underständing .

Your question :

Are you always uncomfortable or afraid when you are underwater.

The answer is given in my posts # 101 and #104

Greetings Rainer

 

[Mantaray95616]

Hello Mantaray

Like You i don't like to quote complete long posts .
But you should have quoted my hole sentens for better underständing .

Hi CG43,

I apologize. I misread your comments.

You said that if a person NEVER has fear........

My response was meant to be about a person with NO fear not being a suitable buddy or member of a dive group. I guess it comes down to the definiton of fear.

Certainly a diver that exhibits a cavalier, couldn't care less attitude, is not an ideal buddy.

If a diver shows signs of fear or anxiety BEFORE a dive, they should not be allowed to dive.

Hope this makes more sense.

Take care, Mantaray95616

 

[NW Dive Dawg]

Recently on my second dive after Open Water Certification I had a mild panic

I personally don't believe that there is such a thing as "mild panic". I think there are varying levels of "extreme concern" and maybe even varying stages of approaching panic. But actual panic is a "switch" that is either ON or OFF.

 

[Goonzodiver]

I think there have been some misunderstandings and maybe I can better clarify my position which I think is similar to that of the already mentioned Dulio Marcante, as I understand it.
It may be that the following reasoning is wrong and that the discussion is off topic (but not completely).
When I spoke about the freediver's best chances, I was not referring to the possibility of doing a free ascent after a "blow and go", after having emptied the lungs (to avoid over-distension). Although it may be sufficient for small depths, if we do a calculation and assume a "blow and go" from 30 meters, even if we empty the lungs, there are 1.2~1.5 liters of residual lung volume filled with air at 4 atmospheres that can be dangerous if brought to the surface.
And we all agree that in order to save your skin you must have a speed that is not excessive, let's say <18m/minute, but I would even say that the last 10 meters should be done at 10m/minute.

I went to get my PADI "open water diver" manual, 2013 edition and CESA is not taken into consideration for depths >9m.
This in my opinion leaves my question from a few days ago without an acceptable answer.
The reason I gave myself 5 years ago, when I got my certification is that, at the (not small) ascent rate of 18m/minute, 9m meters can be covered in 30 seconds.
Why 30 seconds? I note that the majority of people, who certainly have not had freediver training, have such an ability to tolerate CO2 that after only 30 seconds they feel the need to breathe. It is true that during the CESA you exhale weakly [the manual talks about actively exhaling air by vocalizing the sound "aaaah" to remove the compressed gas that is expanding], but the CO2 is continuing to accumulate in the lower part of the lungs and we know that it is the CO2 that triggers air hunger.
This means that if a CESA lasts much longer, on the order of more than a minute, if the diver does not have the ability to tolerate the CO2 that is accumulating, he will probably have a panic attack, far from the surface and there will be a failure, with probable death.
In essence this makes me consider a 20 or 30 meter CESA implausible for a scuba diver who does not also have freediving training.
This seems to me to be a problem (I would say not the only one, the other being the complete dependence on the BCD) for a modern scuba diver, while an "old diver" with freediving training should have a better chance in this context.

 

[boulderjohn]

I think there have been some misunderstandings and maybe I can better clarify my position which I think is similar to that of the already mentioned Dulio Marcante, as I understand it.
It may be that the following reasoning is wrong and that the discussion is off topic (but not completely).
When I spoke about the freediver's best chances, I was not referring to the possibility of doing a free ascent after a "blow and go", after having emptied the lungs (to avoid over-distension). Although it may be sufficient for small depths, if we do a calculation and assume a "blow and go" from 30 meters, even if we empty the lungs, there are 1.2~1.5 liters of residual lung volume filled with air at 4 atmospheres that can be dangerous if brought to the surface.
And we all agree that in order to save your skin you must have a speed that is not excessive, let's say <18m/minute, but I would even say that the last 10 meters should be done at 10m/minute.

I went to get my PADI "open water diver" manual, 2013 edition and CESA is not taken into consideration for depths >9m.
This in my opinion leaves my question from a few days ago without an acceptable answer.
The reason I gave myself 5 years ago, when I got my certification is that, at the (not small) ascent rate of 18m/minute, 9m meters can be covered in 30 seconds.
Why 30 seconds? I note that the majority of people, who certainly have not had freediver training, have such an ability to tolerate CO2 that after only 30 seconds they feel the need to breathe. It is true that during the CESA you exhale weakly [the manual talks about actively exhaling air by vocalizing the sound "aaaah" to remove the compressed gas that is expanding], but the CO2 is continuing to accumulate in the lower part of the lungs and we know that it is the CO2 that triggers air hunger.
This means that if a CESA lasts much longer, on the order of more than a minute, if the diver does not have the ability to tolerate the CO2 that is accumulating, he will probably have a panic attack, far from the surface and there will be a failure, with probable death.
In essence this makes me consider a 20 or 30 meter CESA implausible for a scuba diver who does not also have freediving training.
This seems to me to be a problem (I would say not the only one, the other being the complete dependence on the BCD) for a modern scuba diver, while an "old diver" with freediving training should have a better chance in this context.

You do realize, don't you, that when you are exhaling all the way to the surface, you are also exhaling CO2?

 

[Goonzodiver]

You do realize, don't you, that when you are exhaling all the way to the surface, you are also exhaling CO2?

Yes but I think the amount of CO2 that manages to escape (diffusing from the lung walls) is negligible, most of it is compressed air in expansion that will tend to escape more copiously.
CO2 is heavier than air, I would expect it to start to occupy the lungs from the bottom up, before exiting in sufficient quantities. Let's remember that we are exhaling very weakly without making a real respiratory movement.