Question Panic in the experienced diver?

It would seem to me that, as we gain experience and go through some minor glitches on dives, we should increase our capacity to tolerate issues underwater. I'm wondering what could cause an experienced (say, more than 200 lifetime dives) diver to become distressed enough to lose rational thought. Has anyone here (who meets those criteria) been through a panic event? What caused it, and what did you do?

 

[robbcayman]

I've only experienced some level of panic one time and it was on my checkout dive. We dove a very murky lake.. I'm talking less than a foot of visibility. In fact, it was so bad the instructor wasn't sure he wanted us to do it. Anyways, we went ahead and went down to around 70 feet or so. I lost sight of my instructor rather quickly even thought we had agreed to stay right next to one another.. I could barely see my gauges. Then all of the sudden I got extreme vertigo, I couldn't tell up from down and I became very dizzy. I can only attribute the vertigo to spinning around looking for my instructor.

I started to get overwhelmed, which is not like me. So, I calmly sat there in this murky black lake unsure of which way was up. Then I realized if I raised my gauge and let it fall gravity would clearly instruct me which way was down. Yes, it was dumb, but my calming myself down I was able to realize where I was and made a slow ascent toward the surface. My instructor was waiting for me at the surface and was very relieved to see me. He said he spent at least 10 minutes searching for me in a panic. When you can't see anything and lose the ability to distinguish up from down it's scary. Luckily, I've never had to dive in those conditions since then and probably never would.

 

[Darnold9999]

Great thread - sorry I missed it first time around.

I think we are missing something here. Panic is triggered by more than one mechanism, first an instinctive response to specific external triggers and second the same response to an internal realization that the environment you are in is about to kill you.

My thinking on panic is that it is a hard wired response that takes over when the brain's survival response kicks in. It has determined that nothing rational is going to resolve the problem so it tries the irrational in hopes that that will work. It can be triggered by your rational mind figuring out that it is going to die and passing this realization on or by one of the hard wired response triggers. If you really believe that you will survive whatever problem you are facing you are not telling it that you are about to die so panic is averted. However the moment you truly believe that you are not going to survive and nothing you do can prevent that, IMHO this part of the brain will take over and you will panic.

I think that the instinctive triggers are very primitive and not really capable of understanding many situations. Drowning, falling, fire are all things that this part of the brain is wired to respond to instinctively and can cause us to go into panic mode very quickly. Driving, flying and other more technological persuits don't have these same triggers - that requires the conscious mind to figure out that you will not survive and pass this information on to the panic response. This leads to two different panic responses. One that can be relatively easily controlled using training and practice. The other is less amenable to control and I suspect each person has different things that trigger the response.

I managed to crash my bike into the back of a stationary car a number of years ago. The lead car in a group of 5 cars decided to turn left after I stupidly decided to pass all 5 cars at once and was far beyond all hope of stopping. We both tried to avoid the crash by changing lanes at exactly the same time. I remember looking at the speedometer and seeing the needle at 80 miles an hour while I was doing everything I could to survive, thinking of all the things I could do to enhance that possibility all the way into the ultimate crash. Braking as hard as possible without skidding, changing lanes while braking, choosing the part of the car to hit, looking for options. At no time did panic come in to play - the part of the brain that panics did not ever get the information that I was about to die. Partly because it all happened very fast, and I believe partly because crashing a motorcycle does not trigger the panic reflex directly. The conscious mind needs to process the information first.

(Only the fact that the car I hit was unique, very very very small and light with a very forgiving full height flat back surface for my body to hit made the crash one I walked away from - hitting any other car at that speed - would have been fatal.)

Yet I have been very close to full on panic diving in a very surviveable situation. At 10 feet doing a drysuit checkout dive I somehow managed to get a nosefull of water in my lungs while clearing my mask. For the next 30 seconds or so until I could get my breathing under control and purge the reg I was on the ragged edge of panic. The non rational part of my brain was in full on "we are going to die" mode and I was only barely able to control it. With the surface less than 10 feet away and my rational mind knowing full well that I could swim to the surface easily.

IMHO the panic reflex is exactly that (a reflex) and is triggered two ways. If your conscious mind figures out that you are going to die and passes that information on, the panic reflex is going to trigger. You CAN push this response away via training and practice - convincing the mind that there is always something more that can be done and so you still have a chance.

If it is triggered by some sort of primitive reflex, like a breath of water, CO2 overload, falling - in my limited experience it is MUCH more difficult to control via training and practice or force of will. Doesn't mean you can't, just it is much more difficult.

 

[Akimbo]

My thinking on panic is that it is a hard wired response that takes over when the brain's survival response kicks in. It has determined that nothing rational is going to resolve the problem so it tries the irrational in hopes that that will work. It can be triggered by your rational mind figuring out that it is going to die and passing this realization on or by one of the hard wired response triggers. If you really believe that you will survive whatever problem you are facing you are not telling it that you are about to die so panic is averted. However the moment you truly believe that you are not going to survive and nothing you do can prevent that, IMHO this part of the brain will take over and you will panic.

That is inconsistent with my observations. I do believe that panic is a first response to several situations we are hard-wired to fear and respond to. A young child's fear of the dark for example. Experience, more accurately habituation, teaches us when the fear is unjustified. Habituation is the reason for water-boarding during voluntary military SERE training.

Some individuals appear to be less inclined to frenetic unproductive responses than others, even at young ages. That implies to me that there are different individual responses, though I wouldn't assume that this is consistent throughout life. I have found that that a conscious resignation to an event believed to be fatal often causes serenity in survivors I have spoken to or read about. That may even occur after an initial panic response. In the end preparation, anticipation, and habituation are the primary tools available to improve our individual native responses. This discussion is a useful part of that process. I believe this realization is useful in this process for divers:

... I believe it is a primal reaction to take frenetic action at sudden lack of breathing gas, at least past the early newborn range. It probably served evolution well in that it can repel attach or get your face above water, at least for a short time.

Unfortunately, if my hypothesis is even remotely correct, this bit of evolution does not serve divers well. ...

 

[Hatul]

I think Darnold9999 is on to something. When things don't go right there's a conflict between the instinctive primitive brain controlling the autonomic nervous system and the rational cortex. The heart starts to race and we hyperventilate and want out. Our instincts are fight or flight and get out, which does not work in diving. The problem has to be solved by the rational brain.

Adam

 

[Thalassamania]

I think Darnold9999 is on to something. When things don't go right there's a conflict between the instinctive primitive brain controlling the autonomic nervous system and the rational cortex. The heart starts to race and we hyperventilate and want out. Our instincts are fight or flight and get out, which does not work in diving. The problem has to be solved by the rational brain.

Adam

It is critical to have confidence that you will be able to solve it. As I said earlier:

... Thinking slow, taking a deep breath and remembering that even if all your gear has failed you've got four minutes or so (rather a long time) to solve your issues can go a long way.

 

[Darnold9999]

That is inconsistent with my observations. I do believe that panic is a first response to several situations we are hard-wired to fear and respond to. A young child’s fear of the dark for example. Experience, more accurately habituation, teaches us when the fear is unjustified. Habituation is the reason for water-boarding during voluntary military SERE training.

Some individuals appear to be less inclined to frenetic unproductive responses than others, even at young ages. That implies to me that there are different individual responses, though I wouldn’t assume that this is consistent throughout life. I have found that that a conscious resignation to an event believed to be fatal often causes serenity in survivors I have spoken to or read about. That may even occur after an initial panic response. In the end preparation, anticipation, and habituation are the primary tools available to improve our individual native responses. This discussion is a useful part of that process. I believe this realization is useful in this process for divers:

Don't actually think we are actually disagreeing much at all. I don't disagree that panic can be controlled, just that there are two different triggers and the instictive reactions are much more difficult to control and/or avoid than the panic that occurs when the rational mind gives up and the monkey brain takes over problem solving.

I think we need to be aware of both kinds of panic and try to figure out how to deal with both. Understanding that habituation is probably the best way to deal with instinctive panic while training and experience is the best way to deal with the panic that may take over if you realize that your environment is about to kill you. If you have a bunch of tools to deal with that environment and the confidence that you can apply them then panic is further away.

To take your example I doubt that reading and thinking about waterboarding and how you will survive is going to push the panic response away by more than a few seconds. Experiencing the response and surviving is, I suspect, the only effective tool. Same reason we do mask on and off drills when learning to dive. Reading and thinking about it will help, but you have to experience the water hitting your face and getting a nosefull of water a few times to push the panic response away with any degree of reliability.

 

[Akimbo]

…To take your example I doubt that reading and thinking about waterboarding and how you will survive is going to push the panic response away by more than a few seconds. Experiencing the response and surviving is, I suspect, the only effective tool...

We are on the same page here. I understand that waterboard training during SEER school starts in the classroom and INCLUDES being waterboarded under as realistic conditions as can be created… except they aren’t going to let you actually die or go comatose. The final part of the process comes long afterward as people reflect on the experience. The same is true for harassment dives, military or otherwise. I believe self-reflection after the experience is essential to integrating it into our reflexive response… which is almost impossible to avoid.

I consider reading this forum part of the preparation and/or self-reflection process that supplements actual experience. Obviously, we don’t have to experience every crisis under simulated conditions or even panic — good thing or we’d all be dead. Fortunately we can cope with derivatives — the more related experiences and preparations we have in our gear bag the better.

 

[NWDCGUY]

I located this excellent video describing a CO2 "Hit" - when a build up of Co2 in the body diminishes mental function. I had a similar incident while diving at 100ft - fighting a powerful current for 10 minutes pushing an SLR housing(don't do that).

CO2 hit caught on tape

In the vid the original CO2 buildup happened due to a rebreather failure. The diver then switched to open circuit scuba, however one of the experts indicated that he would never have reduced the CO2 in his bloodstream while submerged.

I wonder if this is because of his rate of breathing, or if it is simply impossible to reduce Co2 in the body at depth due to some physiological equilibrium.

In anycase it feels horrible, your brain takes a bullhorn and starts screaming at you to get to the surface. Every breath of air feels like it's coming through a cocktail straw, and your heartrate and breathing rate go through the roof while your extremities are tingling.

You can tough it out - resist the urge to bolt to the surface. I guess the best thing to do is try to get your breathing under control and ascend at a controlled rate.


240 dives, ripping swirling currents at night in horrible viz, yet that Co2 hit was the only time I actually felt that death was a likely outcome.

 

[TSandM]

CO2 in the bloodstream is completely determined by minute ventilation, assuming the gas you are breathing does not contain additional CO2. Bailing to open circuit definitely makes it POSSIBLE to reduce the blood CO2 level, assuming you can achieve a higher minute ventilation than what's required to keep the CO2 where it is (which is in part related to level of exertion). It may not, however, be possible to reduce CO2 fast enough to clear your head and get rid of the panicky feeling, in part because the natural tendency when panicky is to breathe as fast as possible. On scuba, this means reducing the efficiency of the ventilation, because too much of it is just going to exchange gas in the trachea and large bronchi, which don't exchange gas. That's why we are taught in OW that, if we begin to "overbreathe our regulator" (meaning the diver feels short of breath despite breathing as much as he can), we are to STOP, hang onto something (reduce exertion) and breathe SLOWLY and DEEPLY. It is then possible to reduce CO2. What may not be possible is to stay rational long enough to do it.

 

[Hatul]

I located this excellent video describing a CO2 "Hit" - when a build up of Co2 in the body diminishes mental function. I had a similar incident while diving at 100ft - fighting a powerful current for 10 minutes pushing an SLR housing(don't do that).

In the vid the original CO2 buildup happened due to a rebreather failure. The diver then switched to open circuit scuba, however one of the experts indicated that he would never have reduced the CO2 in his bloodstream while submerged.

I wonder if this is because of his rate of breathing, or if it is simply impossible to reduce Co2 in the body at depth due to some physiological equilibrium.

In anycase it feels horrible, your brain takes a bullhorn and starts screaming at you to get to the surface. Every breath of air feels like it's coming through a cocktail straw, and your heartrate and breathing rate go through the roof while your extremities are tingling.

You can tough it out - resist the urge to bolt to the surface. I guess the best thing to do is try to get your breathing under control and ascend at a controlled rate.


240 dives, ripping swirling currents at night in horrible viz, yet that Co2 hit was the only time I actually felt that death was a likely outcome.

We can store large amounts of CO2 through buffering systems. 70% of CO2 is stored in the bicarb system, 20% bound to Hb and 10% in solution. When we breathe gas without CO2 we can only get rid of a small amount of CO2 with each breath, so it takes several minutes to lower the high blood CO2 levels.

Adam