PADI vs SDI

[fisherdvm]

True, I wish PADI would teach 30FPM as well, and I am not sure why they don't...

Why they shouldn't teach 30 fpm? Because student's and instructor's can't do math worth a darn? My son's SSI instructor was going to be smart and asked him to see how much time it would take to ascend from a 60 ft dive. My son paused a little, then the instructor said it should be more than 30 seconds. I laughed, as it actually SHOULD be alot longer than 30 seconds, actually 120 seconds based on SSI standards.

Bottom line is - 30 ft per minute add confusion to the mind of stupid instructors and stupid students.

It is easier to think AND see that you shouldn't ascend more than 1 ft per second.

Throw in the screwball figure of 30 fpm, then some student think they should ascend at 2 ft per second.

Then some think they should ascend 1 ft per 2 second (which is correct).

Mental math is difficult when you are dealing with 0.5 ft per second.

The bottom line is... KISS. Keep it simple. The bottom line is 1/3 or more of divers exceed the recommended MAXIMUM ascent rate of 60 feet per minute. The bottom line is that most recreational diver don't wear a time piece when then go on a resort dive.

Slower than 1 ft per second is easier to remember than slower than 0.5 ft per second. If you can't do mental math - geez, buy a computer.

PADI is right on this matter. Keep it simple. Keep it at a slower rate than 60 ft per minute. Half this rate is better. But always do a safety stop.

 

[Papa_Bear]

How about "Never beat your Bubbles"! ?????

 

[fisherdvm]

One little problem with that padi course, they teach people to ascend twice the speed of other agencies. That puts it at the bottom in my mind, for starters

Al, this is the most stupid logic I've heard. You don't teach people to ascend at twice the speed of other agencies.

That is like saying, hey, the diver over there is PADI because he is going up like a rocket. The one on the right is SSI, because he is only half way there.

If an instructor can turn out 100% of his student who ascend at a rate less than 60 ft per minute on 99% of their dives after certification - he did a tremendous job.

If an instructor teach class material that taught them to ascend at a rate less than 30 ft per minute, but after certification, his students are shooting up to the surface at rocket speed, he failed miserably.

You laughed at PADI's 5 point ascent, and 5 point descent.... But it drills in the fact that there is a need to stop and think at the 2 most critical part of the dive. The beginning, and the end. By drilling this rigid mentality, a diver will more likely ascend at a safe rate.

By simply focusing on the number 30, and saying that we are better than instructor so and so at padi, and failing to teach the importance of critical thinking at the ascent - you failed the student.

Do I favor the rush the student through the class mentality of either PADI or SSI? No. But my son will recite the PADI 5 pt descent, and PADI 5 pt ascent. Why? It drills in the need for methodical thinking.

Do I drill my son on less than 60 ft per minute vs. less than 30 ft per minute? No. It is irrelevant, when most divers are shooting up to the surface, because they think they are within their NDL, and it is safe.

It is irrelevant whether an agency teaches less than 30 or less than 60. If you produce divers that have no respect for buddy skill, dive planning, and methodical diving - you failed.

By the way, my son carries an SSI certification, and I can tell - he always ascend half of my rate !!!! Ha, ha, ha......

 

[fisherdvm]

How about "Never beat your Bubbles"! ?????

Sorry, I am near sighted, so my bubbles are bigger than your bubbles.

 

[pir8]

True, I wish PADI would teach 30FPM as well, and I am not sure why they don't...

Actually CESA is taught as 30fpm

 

[Alex777]

Actually CESA is taught as 30fpm

Huh??? We are supposed to ascend only 1/2 as fast on 1 breath of air as we do when ascending "normally"? Can someone expand upon this logic?

 

[Papa_Bear]

Sorry, I am near sighted, so my bubbles are bigger than your bubbles.

Never said anything about size! Let your bubbles win the race, if your blind you can do that!

 

[ahava]

Just merely because you have received certification from many of the organizations you've listed, does not give you the qualification to rank order them except through prejudice and bias.

I've assisted with 2 PADI OW classes, and attended my son's SSI's OW class, and there isn't one bit of difference in how the classes are taught. PADI actually required a 50 ft demonstration of free flow regulator. SSI does not even mention it (how to manage free flowing regulator) in their book or in their OW/CW sessions. Because of this, I would have to place SSI below PADI. Walter can confirm this. Second, SSI OW text book is at laughable in organization and presentation. Based on the text book alone, any qualified diver would rank SSI's book below PADI.

Just because you are a PADI DM, NAUI OW, and SSI rescue/AOW does not qualify you to judge the contents of an agencies OW course.

And just because you have assisted 2 PADI and sat in on 1 SSI course does not qualify you to do the same.

 

[fisherdvm]

And just because you have assisted 2 PADI and sat in on 1 SSI course does not qualify you to do the same.

I was objecting to an individual flaming PADI without presenting facts. At least Thalassamia does, and so does Walter. I respect both of them. I don't mean to be a PADI apologist by any way, just simply criticizing those who flame without facts.

I've read both OW books, I have taken your SSI written exam, my son took SSI OW instruction. I was disappointed that the SSI written exam was given to my son as an open book test, but didn't let him take it that way. I was disappointed that free flow regulator management was not taught to my son, and I have asked the SSI instructor why free flow breathing wasn't taught. Of the 6 members of our family who have received scuba instruction, 5 were certified by SSI. Three were not taught how to breath from free flowing regulator (my son, my niece, and my nephew). Two were (my sister and her husband).

The SSI instructor's answer to my question was simply, "you can not simulate a free flowing regulator". Certainly, you can not simulate a stuck first stage with higher than intermediate pressure flowing through your second stage. But you can simulate a stuck free flowing second stage by depressing the purge button. Certainly that might not empty your tank as fast, but the management is still the same.

Free flowing regulator breathing is not a requirement to be taught in the SSI OW certification. Free flowing regulator breathing is a requirement of PADI. I believe Walter said it is required of NAUI and YMCA as well.

Only honest SSI instructors are willing to admit that. The only one that argued against me so far was an SSI divecon, who simply said that HE saw it taught in his OW courses.

That is the reason why I would say it is unreasonable to rank SSI above PADI. Unless you can show me that their standard is different and higher than PADI.

I am not argueing that PADI is the premier certifying institution, it isn't. But to flame in a non-objective manner certainly isn't improving your credentials. The anti-PADI rumors are even worse in Europe... That is ok, as long as you are objective. I've heard instructor of other organizations that said PADI require only 3 OW dives, which is done in 1 day, which is not true. SSI claim to require 5 OW dives, but in reality, one is a snorkeling skill demonstration, counted as a dive.

So feel free to flame PADI, you apparently are certified to teach both SSI and PADI. But also be aware of the weakness of your own OW programs minimum requirement. At least your credentials admit that you are an SSI instructor. Al simply flame PADI, but does chose to go anonymous on his affiliation.

 

[fisherdvm]

Actually CESA is taught as 30fpm

I think dementia must have set in. You are required to do CESA by PADI over a 30 ft distance. At normal ascent rate (less than 60 ft per minute).

I think you are mistaking the two numbers...... Alzheimer can have early onset too, I think.