PADI vs SDI

[seaducer]

One or two. Let's just look at PADI & YMCA and this is just off the top of my head, so I'm bound to miss quite a bit.

YMCA requires divers to be able to swim, not just before they are certified, but before in water teaching begins. Swimming is an optional skill for PADI.
Hold on there, I had to swim to get my PADI OW, my niece had to swim in her OW class, and just 3 months ago, so did my GF. I think you missed this one. I don't know the YMCA standard, but if you can swim 200 meters non-stop, you can swim.

YMCA requires teaching actual skin diving skills (Mask & snorkel recovery, mask clearing), PADI requires very little skin diving.
Ok, but I was an avid skin diver for years before I was able to take an OW course. Scuba and skin are two different animals IMO, and I fail to see how skin diving should be a requirement to SCUBA.

YMCA requires confidence building skills (doff & don, bailout), PADI does not.
PADI sure does! I had to remove replace my gear UW and on the surface, and so did my niece and GF. For the time reference, I went through in 91 and 98, my niece in 2001, and my GF in November.

YMCA requires rescue skills (Simulate in water rescue breathing while towing & removing gear, Rescuea simulated panicked victim on surface) while PADI only requires towing a simulated exhausted diver.
Personally I think rescue SHOULD be in a course all it's own. I agree surfacing a diver is a nice skill to teach OW but the rest? Let people learn how to manipulate their gear and themselves in an alien environment first, then learn how to control and out of control diver in that same environment when they have some level of competence. IMO and YMMV.

YMCA requires instructors to evaluate a student's trim on their open water dives, PADI does not.
A pet peeve of mine that I had to learn trim later on. My first dives may have been much better had this been addressed in class no doubt.

YMCA requires stress and panic to be taught, PADI does not.
I don't remember if this was in my class or not, I have had many courses over the years where this was taught and it all runs together. It would be nice though to go over how to recognize and control these in yourself in the class that will introduce you to something that can make you panic.

YMCA requires subcutaneous emphysema, pneumothorax, mediastinal emphysema, and air embolism to be taught, while PADI requires only mention of air embolism.
Are you teaching or requiring that OW students also be CPR, first aid and O2 certified? There is NO point to throwing fancy medical terms at them unless you are also equipping them to do something about it.

YMCA requires its instructors to teach about drowning, PADI does not.
What about it?

Some of your examples are just false. Some are not important as they don't make you a better or safer diver. Some are Nice to Have skills but again, most serious divers learn them pretty fast after OW, and the once a year vacation divers it doesn't matter if they were taught anyway as they don't practice enough to put it into use.

 

[stimpy4242]

Read Dennis Graver's SCUBA Diving, then tell me it's difficult to teach.

Do you now believe their are major differences between the standards of different agencies entry level course?

I am sorry I don't need to read a book to know about these medical conditions, I teach them to paramedics. Thank you though for your concern. You are right there are major differences.

Now if we can all be adults for a moment, of those differences would you agree that the YMCA is first not taught much anymore and second may have been a bit overboard? Also why do people keep saying PADI has no swimming requirements? You have to swim 200m or mask snorkel fins 300m. In addition, you have to remove and replace gear above and below the water without assistance, who is saying with assistance? This is frustrating.

 

[Scubakevdm]

I am sorry I don't need to read a book to know about these medical conditions, I teach them to paramedics. Thank you though for your concern. You are right there are major differences.

Now if we can all be adults for a moment, of those differences would you agree that the YMCA is first not taught much anymore and second may have been a bit overboard? Also why do people keep saying PADI has no swimming requirements? You have to swim 200m or mask snorkel fins 300m. In addition, you have to remove and replace gear above and below the water without assistance, who is saying with assistance? This is frustrating.

I don't have the standards next to me, but I believe they read, "with minimal assistance". This could be what he means.

 

[pir8]

I don't have the standards next to me, but I believe they read, "with minimal assistance". This could be what he means.

Just happen to have it on my laptop:
2-16 Two: Confined Water Dives
Confined Water Dive Five
Overview
Scuba unit and weight removal and replacement underwater
Scuba unit and weight removal and replacement at the surface
Fun and practice – Skill Combination 5
Exit and debrief
Note: See Skin Diving Skills under Instructor Sequenced Skills.
Performance Requirements:
By the end of this confined water dive, the student will be able to:
1. Remove, replace, adjust and secure the scuba unit on the bottom, with minimal assistance, in water too deep to stand up in.
2. Remove, replace, adjust and secure weight belt or weight system on the bottom in
water too deep to stand up in. For students using weight integrated BCDs or weight
harness systems that require reassembly after weights are removed, have the students
remove the weights in shallow water, while underwater.
3. Remove, replace, adjust and secure the scuba unit and weights at the surface, with
minimal assistance, in water too deep to stand up in.
4. Time for fun and practice.
Recommended Training Sequence:
1. Briefing
2. Equipment assembly, donning and entry — Have students assemble and don their equipment with buddy assistance, perform the predive safety check
and enter water. Provide minimal direction, but oversee to provide assistance as needed.
3. Removal and replacement of scuba unit (underwater)
— On the bottom, demonstrate and have students practice the removal/replacement
technique most appropriate for their gear.
Stress that the unit must not be inflated and that they might need to do
much of the skill by feel. If student divers use the overhead donning method, avoid arm/hose entanglement.
Allow buddy assistance only if required.
4. Removal and replacement of weight system (underwater)
— For students using a conventional weight belt, demonstrate and have
students practice removing and replacing their weight belt on the bottom in water
too deep to stand in. Stress a firm grasp to avoid dropping, leaning forward to
put the weight on the back, releasing the buckle by
feel, pulling the belt clear of the body, donning by rolling or holding the belt
in a loop and buckling by feel. Permit buddy assistance only if necessary.
For students using weight integrated BCDs or weight harness systems with weight pockets/pouches that can be easily removed and replaced without removing
the scuba unit or harness, demonstrate and have students practice removing and replacing weight pocket

 

[Walter]

Hold on there, I had to swim to get my PADI OW, my niece had to swim in her OW class, and just 3 months ago, so did my GF. I think you missed this one. I don't know the YMCA standard, but if you can swim 200 meters non-stop, you can swim.

I'm not talking about any particular class, I'm merely stating what the standards require. PADI standards allow an option in which the student does not have to swim, but can snorkel instead.

I fail to see how skin diving should be a requirement to SCUBA.

You don't seen to understand that I was merely pointing out differences in standards, not discussing the relative merits. For what it's worth, I strongly disagree with with you on this point.

PADI sure does! I had to remove replace my gear UW and on the surface, and so did my niece and GF. For the time reference, I went through in 91 and 98, my niece in 2001, and my GF in November.

Where is that required in PADI standards?

Let people learn how to manipulate their gear and themselves in an alien environment first, then learn how to control and out of control diver in that same environment when they have some level of competence. IMO and YMMV.

No arguments there, that's why it's taught at the end of the OW class and not at the beginning.

I don't remember if this was in my class or not

Again, this is not about what was or was not taught in your particular class. There are excellent PADI instructors who do teach it, but PADI standards do not require them to do so.

Some of your examples are just false.

If they are false, please quote the appropriate point in the standards that show they are false.

Some are not important as they don't make you a better or safer diver.

That's a matter of opinion. My experience shows that they are very effective in making better, safer divers.

I am sorry I don't need to read a book to know about these medical conditions, I teach them to paramedics.

Nice open mind.

You are right there are major differences.

Thank you, now I can expect you to not make such misinformed statements as, "The agencies are all fundamentally teaching the same thing."

Now if we can all be adults for a moment,

I wasn't aware that anyone wasn't.

of those differences would you agree that the YMCA is first not taught much anymore

No. I do agree that it is not nearly as large as some others, but it's being taught every day.

and second may have been a bit overboard?

Actually, YMCA's standards are a little low for my tastes, that's why I always added to their requirements. YMCA has excellent standards when compared to most other agencies, when compared to an ideal, they are lacking.

Also why do people keep saying PADI has no swimming requirements? You have to swim 200m or mask snorkel fins 300m.

You explained it in your question. PADI has made swimming optional. By definition, a requirement is not optional. Snorkeling and swimming are two different things.

In addition, you have to remove and replace gear above and below the water without assistance, who is saying with assistance?

PADI standards say with assistance if necessary.

 

[fisherdvm]

I've seen most folks removing and donned equipment without assistance. But assistance from a buddy or instructor is allowed if they struggled from a difficult setup in the PADI CW sessions I've assisted. For the most part, the instructors encouraged no help. And I've seen them asking student to work on it multiple times. But I agree with Walter, they are allowed to have assistance.

I think a student's ability to do these skills depend alot on the style of the method taught. I find the "riding the horse" method difficult for students, and myself to master. But the "left arm first, push the tank over, then right arm" method works best, for me and for the students. If they are not instructed properly, they might need assistance.

 

[stimpy4242]

I can't believe I am saying this, but we were discussing standards not what people should or do teach. Oh my, so he is right it does say with assistance, minimal, but still with assistance. I agree I tell them to just do it on their own...but now I am raising the standard and I suppose if they couldn't do it on their own, i have no right to not pass them, i need to let their buddy give "minimal" assistance...now that is up to my interpretation.

 

[oly5050user]

I can't believe I am saying this, but we were discussing standards not what people should or do teach. Oh my, so he is right it does say with assistance, minimal, but still with assistance. I agree I tell them to just do it on their own...but now I am raising the standard and I suppose if they couldn't do it on their own, i have no right to not pass them, i need to let their buddy give "minimal" assistance...now that is up to my interpretation.

the removal/replacement skill is to be a problem management skill to build awareness and confidence for the student,and their buddy..Reality is most likely never will be done in ow or anywhere else once student does it in pool...PADI ow course is designed to teach recreational diving not skindiving/freediving.People paid their $ to learn to scuba dive safely and have fun doing it,and PADI meets that need .If the person chooses to go on with training then continue education is there to meet that need.Any agency cannot and should not try to teach everything in one course,it would task load people too much,and the cost would be prohibitive.

 

[stimpy4242]

the removal/replacement skill is to be a problem management skill to build awareness and confidence for the student,and their buddy..Reality is most likely never will be done in ow or anywhere else once student does it in pool...

Ooo I completely disagree. I think there are many opportunities for this to be a practical skill. Entanglements underwater, you would have to remove unit to clear it and then replace. On surface i know some boats you remove gear to hand it up but something could happen where you would have to put it back on. I know you might do it on the surface in case you forgot to turn on your air and you were sparing the embarassment of asking a buddy or perhaps your buddy has not jumped in the water yet...I think this is certainly a practical skill.

 

[stimpy4242]

and actually those situations would probably require you do it all on your own, without any assistance, so I can see where maybe the ymca standard of doing it alll on your own would be more applicable, but like I said I train them that way anyway.