PADI vs NAUI

[Assistant Instructor7]

I have them from nine now. And I insist new students look at them and compare them. As far as you having multiple SEI/CMAS/SDI/TDI Instructor this only tells me that you can not stick with one agency for training because yo want to try to make your self look like your important than some who dose not have multiple ratings from other agencys. Having multiple ratings before your name means nothing any one.... I only need one agency standard in my library and that is PADI

 

[Jim Lapenta]

No it means that I want to offer training in disciplines that my students want and each agency has something different to offer that the other does not. SEI does not have a tech program. Hence the TDI cert. SEI does not currently offer deep to 130ft SDI does. And the crossover was inexpensive. SEI is the training arm for CMAS in the US for those who may wish to have a CMAS card.

I don't think you have any idea how many instructors have certs from multiple agencies so that they can offer different courses. Or how many divers have certs from multiple agencies. Taking courses from multiple agencies opens people up to new ideas and methods. Instead of only seeing one way to do things.

What would you say if I told you I want my students to take con ed classes from other instructors from other agencies? I want them to be exposed to as many different instructors and methods as possible.

Some classes I don't teach at all. Underwater photography? Nope. I'm not passionate about it and don't do it for a living. So I refer students to people who do. And some of them are not even scuba instructors. They don't need to be.

Fish ID? For me not an interest so I refer them to a couple of marine biologists I know. Neither is a scuba instructor for any agency.

Agency loyalty is only good as long as it meets the needs and interests of the diver. When a shop or instructor offers a class they are not passionate about the student often gets cheated. Better to refer them to an expert in the field who may or may not be an instructor.

You have a lot to learn about this activity. DM's and AI's are a dime a dozen. Many of them I would not let anyone I cared about dive with. The rating is sold as another certification card. Anyone with enough cash can get one.

How many tech certs do you have with PADI? I don't feel a diver should be allowed get a DM rating without having taken at least one tech class. You don't say where you are located so no idea what shops and agencies are represented in your area. But I would be interested to find out.

And why are you so against mutli agency certs?

Education is a wonderful thing. Variety makes it even more so. Narrow minds result in narrow views of the world. That is an injustice to your students who would only benefit from a wider expanse of knowledge, methods, and experience.

---------- Post added March 30th, 2013 at 06:06 PM ----------

And you still did not address my question as to what do you, as an instructor or assistant instructor, tell your students to do if they come upon a panicking diver and there is no "rescue diver" ,DM, AI, or Instructor around? What do your standards tell you to advise them to do?
Any new OW diver trained by SEI could tell them what to do. Because it was part of their class.

 

[boulderjohn]

Since the OP (original poster) is new to scuba and ScubaBoard, and since others in this thread also seem to be new, I am going to try to sum up what ScubaBoard veterans have learned from the probably hundreds of threads that have degenerated into the debate that has broken out here. I will also explain a little about how ScubaBoard works.

1. The nearly unanimous consensus of responses to such threads is that the quality of individual instructors varies dramatically, so you can have anything from great to terrible instruction in just about any agency.

2. Those within the dissenting minority are quite vigorous in their dissent.

3. Debates of this kind are not supposed to occur within the Introduction and Greets forum. If this continues, the thread will no doubt be moderated and a slew of posts deleted.

4. Although I am a moderator, because I already participated in the thread, I am not supposed to moderate it. If this continues enough to bring on moderation, someone else will do it.

4. There are many forums on ScubaBoard in which the "My agency is better than your agency!" fight can be carried on, as it has so many, many times before. If you really want to continue this raging debate, please go to one of those forums and either resurrect one of the old threads on the topic or start a new one. You can save a lot of typing time by finding someone in the old threads you agree with and just keep copying/pasting their points into your posts.

 

[smorneau]

Since big brother now wants to moderate the thread he is right, this thread does not belong at all in Introductions and Greets since the OP is not doing either. The OP is in fact asking for an opinion on agencies and that is what he/she is getting, opinions. Some may not like them but they are in fact opinions!

 

[Quero]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

Thread moved from Intros & Greets forum to Agency Q&A. Please keep your contributions on topic and refrain from making it personal.

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[261311]

Agency loyalty is only good as long as it meets the needs and interests of the diver. When a shop or instructor offers a class they are not passionate about the student often gets cheated...Education is a wonderful thing. Variety makes it even more so. Narrow minds result in narrow views of the world. That is an injustice to your students who would only benefit from a wider expanse of knowledge, methods, and experience.

I've never read a more true post in my eyes. I don't think people should restrict themselves to any agency or way of thinking, it holds you down. Unfortunately because instruction is such a diverse variable from every agency it comes down to looking at the agency itself. The baseline. All agencies seem to offer different methods of teaching for various topics at different points, just as Jim mentioned. Why you'd want to necessarily "climb" the PADI ladder which may delay you from your learning or bypass some learning just because you don't want to break your streak with any one agency is beyond me but that's your preference. That method seems to work for you as your pride (AI) is apparent in your certification agency and that's great because it might even work for a few thousand other divers even, but to misdirect thousands of others who might be suited for a different style of diving is a disservice to safety and fun. In the end, every diver is different so every diver will require, in some regard, different instruction and thinking. This will come from a myriad of different sources and inspire people to keep diving, and that's the goal after all for our community isn't it?

 

[SeaCobra]

I am entering my 25th year as a NAUI instructor and also hold the designation for Course Director and Technical Instructor. I chose NAUI to begin with as that was what was offered but have remained NAUI over the years as I feel NAUI offers me the best for my style of teaching and my personal standards. I prefer the academic freedom that allows me to enhance my course to best meet the needs of my divers and I feel that NAUI standards are a bit higher than the other guys.

While all agencies teach a few "rescue" skills at the OW level, NAUI also teaches recovering an unconscious/unresponsive diver from depth. Before you argue whether this is a valid skill at this level or not, be sure to read the DAN accident report and diver fatality statistics for last year. 41% were divers that ran out of gas - perhaps we need to teach ESA's better as well as gas management.

The next category of diver fatality (and I am sorry I forget the number) was a cardiac related event leading to the accident. Knowing how to ditch your buddies weights, achieve positive buoyancy and get them to the surface could have made the difference in a number of emergencies.

NAUI is also a democratic agency whereby the instructors elect the Board of Directors and that Board sets the agency's standards as well as other roles. NAUI Instructors have a direct influence in the path of the agency.

NAUI is a 501(3)C not-for-profit corporation.

NAUI is the oldest, still in operation, training agency in the USA beginning in 1959. PADI was started some years later by former NAUI Instructor(s).

NAUI Instructors are encouraged to exceed NAUI Standards, not deviate from them. Requiring more open water dives to earn certification would be an example. What I believe Jim is referring to is using one's head; such as I need to complete x number of dives for certification but also need y amount of bottom time. If the water is too cold to get lengthy dives in, then we need to shorten the dives for diver safety and comfort, but add more dives to meet all requirements.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Jeff understands it completely. Had I been able to at the time, and saw that the YMCA profgram was going to close, I'd have found some way to come up with the extra funds to take the NAUI Instructor route as opposed to the YMCA. The morals and ethics of the programs were nearly identical. As were the standards that mattered to my style of teaching. But at the time the YMCA Instructor exam was under a grand. The NAUI route was $1800 by the time all was said and done. And I hold a couple NAUI Tech certs that I got before moving to instructor.

Not being psychic I saved some money. And in the end it all worked out anyway. I got in on the ground floor with SEI and, like NAUI, instructor input is valued, solicited, respected, and implemented. I've authored two courses, was co editor and author of another, and helped establish the standards for our Advanced Level Classes (formerly AOW) by requiring divers who have not had the rescue skills Jeff noted, as well as panicked diver, taught in their OW class to be remediated and covered. Either as an addition to the Advanced Level classes or as a workshop type course before they can begin the Advanced Level training.

My feeling is that you do not give a diver access to dives where things can go wrong faster for them and their buddy with potentially more serious consequences without giving them the knowledge and skills to assist each other. Just as I would not allow anyone I cared about to dive with a person who does not have those skills at any level.

 

[boulderjohn]

While all agencies teach a few "rescue" skills at the OW level, NAUI also teaches recovering an unconscious/unresponsive diver from depth. Before you argue whether this is a valid skill at this level or not, be sure to read the DAN accident report and diver fatality statistics for last year. 41% were divers that ran out of gas - perhaps we need to teach ESA's better as well as gas management.

The next category of diver fatality (and I am sorry I forget the number) was a cardiac related event leading to the accident. Knowing how to ditch your buddies weights, achieve positive buoyancy and get them to the surface could have made the difference in a number of emergencies.

So that is indeed the main difference. I will summarize the opposing point of view.

In arguing that it is good to teach the skill of surfacing an unconscious/unresponsive diver at depth, you say it is important to do that because we don't do a good enough job teaching gas management or ESAs. Many people don't see a correlation between those very different skills.

You then point out that it would be good to be able to help a buddy who is having a heart attack get to the surface safely. Once again, that is not the same thing as surfacing an unconscious/unresponsive diver.

So let's talk about how important that skill is rather than how important other skills are. In the many threads about this topic in the past, physicians have pointed out that if you come across an unconscious/unresponsive diver, that diver is essentially dead. In those other threads, proponents have been challenged to provide an example of a single case in the history of diving in which a diver came across an unconscious/unresponsive diver, brought the diver to the surface using the approved technique, and had the diver live. There have been cases where divers who were observed in distress and passing out had people grab them and pull them to the surface, but that is, once again, not the same thing, and it is a skill that requires no instruction.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

It does if the rescuer does not realize what can and likely may happen if they grab an overweighted diver and start bringing them to the surface and get tangled up with them it could very well turn into two victims. Same with the panicked diver on the surface or one who cannot drop their weights. What's wrong with taking a pool session to show them how to assist the person safely?

There would not be a family missing a mom/wife if a buddy had been shown how to do this in one of the incidents I researched when doing my "Failure of the Buddy System" presentation. She could not release her weights and the buddy was trying to bring her to the surface by hauling her up by the octo hose. She drowned less than four feet from the surface.

Why would anyone deny a diver the skills to prevent something like that? We are supposed to be creating divers who do not need us as instructors/DM's to dive. They are supposed to be capable of performing all the skills necessary to do that. And I would submit that includes being able to assist each other. If they can't, and as we know many can't even plan a dive on their own, why do they even have a card?

They are not supposed to if the cert is issued by a signatory to the RSTC.