PADI vs NAUI

[Simon-]

Just for clarity, as others have liked to quote PADI standards regarding the certification following the completion of performance requirements. Yes, you must issue a certification following the successful completion of all performance requirements, but you as the instructor are the one to judge if that has actually been done.

Remember mastery, the ability to perform a skill in a fluid, comfortable and repeatable manner. If the student doesn't, you remediate and repeat as required. Those skills cover both the confined and open water sections of the course.

Only certify when you, the instructor, is confident on the student's ability.

 

[Thalassamania]

Just for clarity, as others have liked to quote PADI standards regarding the certification following the completion of performance requirements. Yes, you must issue a certification following the successful completion of all performance requirements, but you as the instructor are the one to judge if that has actually been done.

Just for clarity, this is therefore a violation of PADI Standards:

I saw a comment earlier in this thread that stated if the student completed all the requirements, you had no choice as an instructor (PADI) but to certify them. This is not true at all. I do have a choice...and if I feel the student can't dive safely, I will not certify them.

and this too is a violation of PADI Standards:

I agree. As an intructor *I* decide if the student has shown that he is capable of diving safely. If it comes down to a yes-no discussion, I will gladly issue a full refund (without a referral of course).

The standards merely state that if you ran a PADI training course, the diver should be certified as a PADI diver and not receive a different certificate.

You are correct in stating that:

Remember mastery, the ability to perform a skill in a fluid, comfortable and repeatable manner. If the student doesn't, you remediate and repeat as required. Those skills cover both the confined and open water sections of the course.

Only certify when you, the instructor, is confident on the student's ability.

and you must certify, unless you can point to a specific and irremediable failure on the part of the student to perform a specific skill required by the PADI Standards for that course.
So ... what Walter posted was correct:

... while PADI standards do say that, they also say you must issue the certification if the student meets all of PADI's requirements. An instructor may not add requirements. PADI standards state, "you must....issue a PADI certification to all divers who satisfactorily meet the preformance requirements." When you add a requirement such as, "As an intructor *I* decide if the student has shown that he is capable of diving safely," you are in violation of PADI standards.

Y'all better turn in your PADI Instructor cards until you get some of that there remediation that was talked about, because you do not know your agency's standards, as evidenced by:

I would just like to know if I am acting against standards if I do not certify a student I feel is not ready to dive safely, even though the requirements have been met... Interesting

Asked and answered.

@ MarcelT > I think it is much better to consult a course director or instructor trainer on ur certifying agency..Your point was VERY interesting indeed!..ON my case even if the student has complied with all the PERFORMANCE requirements and i found out that somehow he is "NOT" ready to dive, I always see to it that i have raised the ISSUES that made me think "HE IS NOT READY TO DIVE"..i somehow think that this concern of yours is a bit about on the STUDENT DIVER's character or ethics that may result to certain possible dive emergencies in the future..

PADI does not recognize your ability to make such a judgement. In PADI's view your are not to be trusted to make such a decision.

This is a significant reason why Walter, Burhan, and I, as well as many other responsible instructors choose not to be associated with the PADI program.

 

[Simon-]

Standards actually say "A diver earns certification (Positive Identifi cation Card - PIC) by demonstrating mastery of all course knowledge and skill performance requirements and fulfilling all other course requirements".

Guess what that means? If they haven't demonstrated to you, the instructor, mastery (for that level of training), you are not obliged to issue certification.

 

[MarcelT]

PADI does not recognize your ability to make such a judgement. In PADI's view your are not to be trusted to make such a decision.

There is another element that is relevant to this discussion. Standards of any agency will never supercede the law or regulations.

I know the laws here in the Netherlands differ from the US. Over here the courts will ask 3 experts to comment on an event to determine if you -the instructor- acted the way every responsible instructor would have done, to determine if you are liable for an event.

In this context, agency standards provide the MINIMUM requirements for conducting a course, performance requirements etc. This also gives me the mandate to NOT certify a student when I feel he/she is not capable of diving safely.

Likewise, I would only take a single student to 30m in an AOW because that is the only way for me to keep control in our muddy waters. Anything more would be considered unresponsible by the norm set by my peer group.

Luckily the standards were designed in the US where sueing seems to have become an industry on its own. The standards are not positioned above the law, which in my country translates to the 'norm', ie common sense.

In Europe it is also illegal to use a waiver of liability, so you as a diving professional are responsible and required to act accordingly by law. Using the PADI standards never release you of that responsibility, but provide a baseline that covers the minimum requirements.

Maybe this discussion plays out differently between regions with different law systems...

Marcel

 

[MarcelT]

Y'all better turn in your PADI Instructor cards until you get some of that there remediation that was talked about, because you do not know your agency's standards, as evidenced by.

Ehrm, I was merely making this comment to lighten up the discussion (did you see the smiley?) and keep the exchange of viewpoints constructive...

Of course I will never base my interpretation of standards, law or regulations on comments made in an internet forum. I will ask the party involved directly. I still believe I am follwing the standards for the full 100% but am willing to discuss alternate views. Only way to learn, right..?

 

[Thalassamania]

Standards actually say "A diver earns certification (Positive Identifi cation Card - PIC) by demonstrating mastery of all course knowledge and skill performance requirements and fulfilling all other course requirements".

Guess what that means? If they haven't demonstrated to you, the instructor, mastery (for that level of training), you are not obliged to issue certification.

That maybe true, but PADI does not permit the unwashed masses routine access to their standards, so sometimes we are a year behind. But ... be that as it may, it means the same thing, you can only deny certification if the student fails to "master" one of the PADI specified skills. You may not:

...and if I feel the student can't dive safely, I will not certify them.

and you may not:

I agree. As an intructor *I* decide if the student has shown that he is capable of diving safely.

Acting in a manner in line with either of those approaches is a violation of PADI standards. Thus what Walter wrote:

... PADI standards do say that, they also say you must issue the certification if the student meets all of PADI's requirements. An instructor may not add requirements. PADI standards state, "you must....issue a PADI certification to all divers who satisfactorily meet the preformance requirements." When you add a requirement such as, "As an intructor *I* decide if the student has shown that he is capable of diving safely," you are in violation of PADI standards. As an SEI instructor, I can and I do add just such a requirement because SEI has no statement like PADI's in their standards. As a PADI instructor you can only get away with it if the student is not aware of the statement in PADI's standards.

is correct.

There is another element that is relevant to this discussion. Standards of any agency will never supercede the law or regulations.

I know the laws here in the Netherlands differ from the US. Over here the courts will ask 3 experts to comment on an event to determine if you -the instructor- acted the way every responsible instructor would have done, to determine if you are liable for an event.

In this context, agency standards provide the MINIMUM requirements for conducting a course, performance requirements etc. This also gives me the mandate to NOT certify a student when I feel he/she is not capable of diving safely.

Unless there is a separate set of PADI standards for your country, I would have to say that you are wrong. This is not a legal question this is a standards question and the PADI standards are rather clear, you may no withhold certification except in a case where a student has failed to master a skill that is specifically required by PADI standards. You do not have the right to NOT certify a student when I feel he/she is not capable of diving safely. PADI Standards are not just minimum standards but specify (for the purpose of certification) a bottom ("mastery") and a top (the PADI required skills), nothing less and NOTHING MORE!

Likewise, I would only take a single student to 30m in an AOW because that is the only way for me to keep control in our muddy waters. Anything more would be considered unresponsible by the norm set by my peer group.

Luckily the standards were designed in the US where sueing seems to have become an industry on its own. The standards are not positioned above the law, which in my country translates to the 'norm', ie common sense.

In Europe it is also illegal to use a waiver of liability, so you as a diving professional are responsible and required to act accordingly by law. Using the PADI standards never release you of that responsibility, but provide a baseline that covers the minimum requirements.

Maybe this discussion plays out differently between regions with different law systems...

Marcel

While that is all quite interesting and praiseworthy, it does not address the question that is on the table here which is: "Does PADI permit you to withhold certification for any reason other than a student's inability to 'master' the specific list of PADI skills that are specified in the PADI Standards."

I would just like to know if I am acting against standards if I do not certify a student I feel is not ready to dive safely, even though the requirements have been met... Interesting

You are acting against standards in such a situation.

Ehrm, I was merely making this comment to lightten up the discussion (did you see the smiley?) and keep the exchange of viewpoints constructive...

Of course I will never base my interpretation of standards, law or regulations on comments made in an internet forum. I will ask the party involved directly. I still believe I am following the standards for the full 100% but am willing to discuss alternate views. Only way to learn, right..?

It would seem that you might be better served to base your interpretation of standards, law or regulations on comments made in an internet forum than on what you have been taught. It appears that Walter and I know a damn sight more about PADI's standards than did your trainers.

 

[Thalassamania]

Here's a post on the subject from BoulderJohn, the chap who wrote the piece in the last PADI Journal about teaching in neutral buoyancy:

Further, I agree a PADI instructor cannot add requirements, but that does not mean he cannot add material to the class. A PADI instructor, teaching a PADI class can add material to a class. The only thing he can't do is refuse to certify the student if the additional material isn't passed. It's one factor that would stop me from ever teaching through PADI, but as a practical matter, it really doesn't matter. Students do what you tell them. They don't know what is optional and what is required. They don't ask, they just do what you tell them. So the PADI instructor can't require students to learn the extra skills, students will learn them anyway if the instructor tells them to learn them. Unless the instructor adds something that is specifically forbidden in the standards, there's no violation.

... Walter's post above is perfectly correct. It is a very good explanation, in fact.
...

 

[MarcelT]

You are acting against standards in such a situation.

Well, what I was saying about law and the standards was actually presented by a Dutch PADI Examiner during the PADI on Tour event, as part of a risk management workshop. Have you attended these sessions or do you get your opinions from reading the standards without context?

It would seem that you might be better served to base your interpretation of standards, law or regulations on comments made in an internet forum than on what you have been taught. It appears that Walter and I know a damn sight more about PADI's standards than did your trainers.

Even though I am all for an open discussion on anything diving, I don't like people slagging off people that offer an alternative vision. No point in having a debate that way.

I am a bit disappointed that you are turning this in yet another "my agency is better than yours and so am I" flame war. There are too many of those pointless threads already, so this is where I sign off and go spend my time on something a bit more constructive.

Dive safely,
Marcel

 

[Thalassamania]

Have I mentioned another agency? No.

Am I advocating for another agency? No.

Do you have a good grasp of PADI Standards? I think not.

 

[MarcelT]

Have I mentioned another agency? No.

Am I advocating for another agency? No.

Do you have a good grasp of PADI Standards? I think not.

Nice.