PADI vs NAUI

[Thalassamania]

Nice, and true too. Your discussion is all over the map, you keep trying to drag in irrelevancies and engage in logical fallacies such as "appeals to authority." I hate to tell you this but I am (likely) a more thoroughly qualified "authority" than the Dutch PADI Examiner participating in the PADI on Tour event. But that is neither here nor there.

We were focused on a rather simple question: are you permitted, as a PADI Instructor, to deny certification to a student whom you do not feel would be a safe diver. You (and a few others) think that you can. I (and a few others) showed you that you were not. I don't get what the big deal is.

People who are interested in learning, when they are proven wrong, stop trying to justify an indefensible position, they just say, "thanks, I learned something," and move on to the next topic.

Here's one more chance: Are you permitted by PADI to withhold certification from a diver who has "mastered" all the PADI required skills but whom you do not feel will make a safe diver? Please, yes or no.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

OK, I think I have been avoiding this ancient thread for years, but it seems to me, now that the UJ article has been brought up, that following Thal's thought process regarding Standards and Mastery, requiring the OW skills to be Mastered while neutrally buoyant kind of sounds like violating Standards.

 

[Thalassamania]

No, I'd say that failure to do those skills in a neutrally buoyant fashion is failure to "master" them. But there is already a thread out there for that subject, please use it rather than this one.

 

[Simon-]

Here's one more chance: Are you permitted by PADI to withhold certification from a diver who has "mastered" all the PADI required skills but whom you do not feel will make a safe diver? Please, yes or no

If the student has indeed mastered the skills, not just practical diving skills, but also the knowledge skills, there would be no reason to assume that they would ne an unsafe diver.

Someone who struggles to get one right answer on a dive planner question, whether it is with the RDP, eRDPml or a computer would not in my view be a safe diver, has not demonstrated mastery and would not be certified.

This is just going to go round in circles, so can't be bothered with it anymore.

Bottom line, going way back to the OP, check out dive centres in your area and make your own mind up about who to be trained with.

Remember, opinions are like arseholes, everyone has got one

 

[Mark Guccione]

 

[Thalassamania]

Here's one more chance: Are you permitted by PADI to withhold certification from a diver who has "mastered" all the PADI required skills but whom you do not feel will make a safe diver? Please, yes or no

If the student has indeed mastered the skills, not just practical diving skills, but also the knowledge skills, there would be no reason to assume that they would ne an unsafe diver.

Someone who struggles to get one right answer on a dive planner question, whether it is with the RDP, eRDPml or a computer would not in my view be a safe diver, has not demonstrated mastery and would not be certified.

This is just going to go round in circles, so can't be bothered with it anymore.

Bottom line, going way back to the OP, check out dive centres in your area and make your own mind up about who to be trained with.

Remember, opinions are like arseholes, everyone has got one

Wait a minute, you and your bud made claims that if you felt that someone was not a safe diver you could withhold certification. We showed you that to do so would be against standards. So now you try to shift the focus and claim that anyone who (by definition) who met the PADI standards you would consider to be a safe diver and thus would certify. That's known as a tautology and is, logically speaking, horse pucky. You know that you're taking the discussion in a circular path yet you try to use that as a reason to bail. Reminds me of the kid who killed his folks and threw himself on the mercy of the court on the basis of being an orphan.

Please, answer the question directly: Are you permitted by PADI to withhold certification from a diver who has "mastered" all the PADI required skills but whom you do not feel will make a safe diver? Please, yes or no.

I can provide plenty of examples of such cases, in fact I already have (see post 364). The point here is that we will not teach under such a stipulation. If you are happy to do so, stop begging the question and proudly step up to the plate.

 

[Simon-]

As I said, going round in circles.

I disagree that you showed withholding a certification would be in breach of standards. If I feel, my perogative as the instructor, that the student has not reached the required standard, I don't certify. Simple. Not a breach of standards in anyway shape or form.

The performance requirements are there as a means of measuring a student's ability, but the instructor will decide if the student can do them well enough and safely enough to be certified.

Have I certified every student that has come to me? No. I did not feel that they were competent enough to be certified.

I have the students sign an agreement between me and them before they start, stating that the course outline is merely the minimum number of sessions (confined water, open water etc) and they may need additional sessions. These sessions (my choice) may be chargeable. It also states that failing to reached the required level (there's the word mastery again), would result in no certification being issued.

They either sign or they don't. If they don't sign it, I don't train them. It is my professional standing that will be scrutinised at some later date when they go of diving elsewhere, and I want those that I train to be more than capable.

You obviously have an issue with PADI, fine, it's your issue.

 

[Thalassamania]

As I said, going round in circles.

It is hard to go in a straight line when you go in circles.

I disagree that you showed withholding a certification would be in breach of standards. If I feel, my perogative as the instructor, that the student has not reached the required standard, I don't certify. Simple. Not a breach of standards in anyway shape or form.

This is not a matter of opinion, neither your nor my opinion matter. The fact is (just read the standards and the posts by other PADI Instructors that were provided) that you do not have that prerogative, regardless of what you feel.

The performance requirements are there as a means of measuring a student's ability, but the instructor will decide if the student can do them well enough and safely enough to be certified.

That is not the issue, the issue is can you withhold certification from a student who by an objective measure has demonstrated "mastery" of all PADI skills and knowledge objectives? Yes or no?

Have I certified every student that has come to me? No. I did not feel that they were competent enough to be certified.

Did any of those students demonstrate "mastery" of all PADI skills and knowledge objectives?

I have the students sign an agreement between me and them before they start, stating that the course outline is merely the minimum number of sessions (confined water, open water etc) and they may need additional sessions. These sessions (my choice) may be chargeable. It also states that failing to reached the required level (there's the word mastery again), would result in no certification being issued.

They either sign or they don't. If they don't sign it, I don't train them. It is my professional standing that will be scrutinised at some later date when they go of diving elsewhere, and I want those that I train to be more than capable.

That is not the question on the table, please answer the question with a simple yes or no.

You obviously have an issue with PADI, fine, it's your issue.

My (our) issue is that PADI requires, by standards, certification regardless of my judgement or the skills and knowledge that I feel a student should have. Perhaps it is overweening of me, but I think that I am better positioned to make that judgement than some cubicle jockey in Santa Anna.

 

[Simon-]

My last post on this thread

This is not a matter of opinion, neither your nor my opinion matter. The fact is (just read the standards and the posts by other PADI Instructors that were provided) that you do not have that prerogative, regardless of what you feel

Of course it is a matter of opinion. It is your opinion as an instructor as to whether or not the student has performed well enough.

That is not the issue, the issue is can you withhold certification from a student who by an objective measure has demonstrated "mastery" of all PADI skills and knowledge objectives? Yes or no?

If a student has shown mastery in all areas, I can't think of a reason not to certify. An unsafe student would not have displayed mastery in all areas

Did any of those students demonstrate "mastery" of all PADI skills and knowledge objectives?

They did not satisfy the course performance requirements

That is not the question on the table, please answer the question with a simple yes or no.

Thought I had answered that in the post - "It also states that failing to reached the required level (there's the word mastery again), would result in no certification being issued".

My (our) issue is that PADI requires, by standards, certification regardless of my judgement or the skills and knowledge that I feel a student should have. Perhaps it is overweening of me, but I think that I am better positioned to make that judgement than some cubicle jockey in Santa Ana

Would this be the same expectation that you have (from a previous thread) that to be a competent diver, they should first be a competent free diver? Oh well, I guess that after more than 25 years diving, but having no interest in free diving, despite training through various agencies and in a wide range of conditions, I am not competent. I bow down to such great scuba gods and offer meekly to carry their dive bags.

 

[Thalassamania]

My last post on this thread

I guess you lack what it takes to answer a simple question concerning PADI Standards. Bye.

This is not a matter of opinion, neither your nor my opinion matter. The fact is (just read the standards and the posts by other PADI Instructors that were provided) that you do not have that prerogative, regardless of what you feel

Of course it is a matter of opinion. It is your opinion as an instructor as to whether or not the student has performed well enough.

As to whether or not a student has performed well enough to meet PADI objectives is a matter of opinon, but that is not the question, the question is (once again) are you permitted to not certify a student who meets all that PADI certification criteria?

That is not the issue, the issue is can you withhold certification from a student who by an objective measure has demonstrated "mastery" of all PADI skills and knowledge objectives? Yes or no?

If a student has shown mastery in all areas, I can't think of a reason not to certify. An unsafe student would not have displayed mastery in all areas
It is your opinion as an instructor as to whether or not the student has performed well enough.

You continue to duck the question.

Did any of those students demonstrate "mastery" of all PADI skills and knowledge objectives?

They did not satisfy the course performance requirements

You continue to duck the question.

That is not the question on the table, please answer the question with a simple yes or no.

Thought I had answered that in the post - "It also states that failing to reached the required level (there's the word mastery again), would result in no certification being issued".

You continue to duck the question.

My (our) issue is that PADI requires, by standards, certification regardless of my judgement or the skills and knowledge that I feel a student should have. Perhaps it is overweening of me, but I think that I am better positioned to make that judgement than some cubicle jockey in Santa Ana

Would this be the same expectation that you have (from a previous thread) that to be a competent diver, they should first be a competent free diver? Oh well, I guess that after more than 25 years diving, but having no interest in free diving, despite training through various agencies and in a wide range of conditions, I am not competent. I bow down to such great scuba gods and offer meekly to carry their dive bags.

25 years, wow ... think you can learn the standards of your agency in the next 25? Since "appeals to authority" (as noted earlier an approach that is somewhat lacking) seem to be so important to you, I will mention in passing that after you've been diving another 25 years, you will be have been diving almost as long as I have been now (I guess that is of some importance to you, but keep in mind the old saw about 1,000 dives in the same mudhole ...), and no ... I do not need anyone to carry my bags, at least not yet. When I do need someone to carry my bags I will select someone with well honed reading skills, but thanks for the offer anyway.

You should, however, note that I did not say you needed to continue to be an active freediver, I said that you need to become a competent free diver during your learning process. From what I have seen over the last fifty-five years, failure to do so leaves you severly limited.