PADI vs NAUI

[BDSC]

They would probably flunk out of most PADI classes,

I didn't know anyone could flunk out of a PADI class!

 

[Thalassamania]

...

I would propose that Scripts 100 Hour (or same, same different name) students, who chose to sign up for those scientific diver courses, are passionate about what they are doing and are not what one usually pictures when using "geeks and nerds."

Then you'd often be wrong.

Below is a 4th year U Penn Marine Biology major who got PADI certified at the Grand Wailea resort between Christmas and New Years ('07). I only conducted OW dive #4 (pictured). The rest was conducted by a true turn and burn NASE Intro Teacher who has been working at that resort for more than 10 years. I can guarantee that he is not as demanding of his students as I am, but he sells photo disks of nearly all his dives and he teaches his students to be good dive photo models.

The few mandatory skills of dive 4 were breezed through in less than 10 minutes and then I did my typical certified diver photo tour of Wailea Point; deeper than 50 fsw, I got my teeth cleaned, she did not, longer than 60 minute dive. I had to go under 500 psi to get her to 500 psi, and surprise, surprise; the turn and burn teacher did not have her overweighted.

This last photo is my half brother, ~30 minutes after completing the requirements of his PADI OW cert. At the time of his certification (summer '06) he had just been accepted for a U Penn post grad research position in Gene Therapy, and his summers at Bodega Marine Laboratory, although dry, had been a big reason for his acceptance, and a big reason for his attentiveness during his PADI OW Course. Unlike his jock-ish oldest brother/instructor, his hobby was the other half of his dual Denver University Bachelor's Degrees; decidedly non jock-ish Concert Pianist.

I guess I am missing what epiphany I am supposed to experience from these two pictures. They show people who appear comfortable in the water, that says nothing about what they know or how they will perform under pressure.

So ... maybe she was a natural, maybe he was, maybe they are no where near what you are attempting to present them as, maybe they are. The photos tell us little to nothing.

I think I talked about at least one of the "naturals" I've taught over the years. That really doesn't mean a thing, regardless of her major or his musical talents.

 

[flots am]

You can say it's not enough to justify my arguements, you can say it's incomplete but saying it doesn't exist, your dead wrong.

OK. I'll bite.

How many dives were done last year and how many were done 20 years ago?

flots.

 

[endurodog]

Thal I appreciate your well thought out arguements but I stand by my statements that I think your wrong, you think I'm wrong. I think an increase in training will bring an increase in cost and time to the students and will drive some away. I further beleive that the increase you are proposing in training will bring little if any change in accident rates.

Nothing you can say will change my mind and nothing you say will change mine.

Happy diving to you.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I guess I am missing what epiphany I am supposed to experience from these two pictures. They show people who appear comfortable in the water

Thal, I quoted a post by Walter, in two different snips, to speak directly at Walter's quoted snips. I thought that was why we quoted snips; so others could see what post/snips we are directly speaking to.

Thal teaches science students to dive. I may be over simplifying it a tad, but they are basically nerds and geeks, they are not typically what I think of when I think of folks in peak physical condition. They would probably flunk out of most PADI classes, yet they take a class that most folks think is harder than the typical PADI class and they pass it, often with little or no difficulty.

I was just pointing out that the two people I've met who were what I feel are the closest to potential scientific diving students, of all the students I've met, did not fit Walter's simplification. Zero for two. :shocked2:

Also, as my brother's instructor I am not 100% happy with his hand positioning in that picture, but if you consider his just one month prior music degree the hand positioning is more understandable.

And she was hot too. I would have tried to hook my brother up, if he had needed a hook up.

 

[Walter]

Personally, I feel this could use one extra word.....

If you are just an instructor, don't use agencies with low standards or who don't allow instructors to add requirements to their classes.

If you are a teacher, very few students will not learn whatever you teach them.

If you use agencies with low standards, when other options are available, you are encouraging agencies to have low standards. If you are happy with agencies having low standards, continue to use them.

Yes, students will learn what you teach them. If you believe in the fast class with few skills and have low expectations about quality, your students will learn that and most will be happy. If you believe in taking the time to allow your students to actually learn the skills and giving them more skills to increase their level of confidence, they will learn that as well. I believe we should all use agencies whose standards and philosophies mirror our own. If you fit in the first group, you agencies with low standards and who don't allow instructors to add requirements to their classes. If you fit in the second group you shouldn't use agencies with low standards or who don't allow instructors to add requirements to their classes. It's silly to support and agency if your philosophy is vastly different from the agency's philosophy.

Is there a problem with the accident rate your trying to fix?

There isn't an accident rate. There is some data on accidents, but there is no rate.

Flots data does exist, agree with it or disagree it does exist. Thal even says that he compiled some of that data. You can say it's all made up in my mind but how bout what he complied????

He already explain that. The data he collected is fundamentally different from the data collected today. There is data on some accidents, but no data on number of dives. Without data on number of dives there is no accident rate.

 

[Walter]

Thal, I quoted a post by Walter, in two different snips, to speak directly at Walter's quoted snips. I thought that was why we quoted snips; so others could see what post/snips we are directly speaking to.

You are correct, but they demonstrate only that not all geeks and nerds fit the stereotype. We already knew that. I even admitted that in my post you were trying to refute with your two exceptions. Thal, who has actually seen his students, appears to agree with my point.

I would propose that Scripts 100 Hour (or same, same different name) students, who chose to sign up for those scientific diver courses, are passionate about what they are doing and are not what one usually pictures when using "geeks and nerds."

Then you'd often be wrong.

 

[Thalassamania]

Thal I appreciate your well thought out arguements but I stand by my statements that I think your wrong, you think I'm wrong. I think an increase in training will bring an increase in cost and time to the students and will drive some away. I further beleive that the increase you are proposing in training will bring little if any change in accident rates.

]Yes, my arguments are well thought out but you only counter them with what you believe. Belief is irrelevant here, do you have any thought out arguments that are anything more than your belief? I have shown you why the basis of your belief has a logical problem that you were unaware of, shouldn't that change your view?

Nothing you can say will change my mind and nothing you say will change mine.

Happy diving to you.

Now there's a rational approach.

Actually it would be very easy to change my mind, all it would take is valid data combined with an insightful analysis that contradicts the views I expressed, so please, speak for yourself, not for me.

 

[endurodog]

]Yes, my arguments are well thought out but you only counter them with what you believe. Belief is irrelevant here, do you have any thought out arguments that are anything more than your belief? I have shown you why the basis of your belief has a logical problem that you were unaware of, shouldn't that change your view?

.

Thal yes I do have well thought out arguements you chose to dismiss them. There is data out there that I, and others, draw conclusions from that I believe are sound. People reference bike riding dangers and baseball dangers but does anyone really know how many bike rides happen every year, or baseball games. There is no exact data on any activity so with that logic there can be no reliable data on anything that man does except space flights or something so rare like that. There is data on how many dives happen every year based on some knowns and some unknowns but it's not a pure guess. Thal, like Flots you can say you don't like the data, you don't agree with it, but you can't say there is none or I'm guessing. I'm using the information that is out there.

All statistics on dangers in any activity is based on reasonable assumptions of number of incidents of that activity. There are no hard numbers that are completely accurate for number of participations in ANY activity. If your going to use that arguement for scuba then you have to apply it to all activities or your being hypocritical in your arguements.

 

[Brendon]

Thal I appreciate your well thought out arguements but I stand by my statements that I think your wrong, you think I'm wrong. I think an increase in training will bring an increase in cost and time to the students and will drive some away. I further beleive that the increase you are proposing in training will bring little if any change in accident rates.

Nothing you can say will change my mind and nothing you say will change mine.

Happy diving to you.

After reading thru ur posts and reviewing your profile I have come to this conclusion. You are not a dive professional, salty dog or even an employee at a LDS. You live in a land locked state though with a good amount of divers. You really have no idea what goes on in the real world outside of your local ponds and occasional visit to the ocean. I'm sure in your state it presents its own challenges, like promoting dive travel to convince people to learn to scuba dive locally. I'm sure pricing out there can get pretty cheap considering the extra work like altitude and possibly drysuit training for an OW price, so of course instructors wouldn't want to run a longer class. For no other reason then hourly payout factor... You have shown no proof to any of your points, as others have. You seem to be pretty closed minded on the subject, so why even debate it if you are not willing to learn or except anything other then what you already think you know? Not to mention the fact that without being a dive professional or atleast a certified salty dog your words carry little weight in this matter, regardless of your regular profession.