PADI vs NAUI

[Thalassamania]

The basis of your interpretation of the risk of diving is based on data published by the NUADC and DAN. As the only surviving member of the team that collected the NUADC data, I am telling you that your assumption that the NUADC data and the DAN may be legitimately be combined is incorrect. The two data sets were not collected on the same basis. The NUADC data overestimates the risks of diving when compared to the DAN data (which I feel underestimates them, but that is not important to this discussion) and thus combining the two data sets creates an unsupportable artifact that you are incorrectly interpreting as a reduction in risk. Do you understand this?

 

[endurodog]

Brendon I certified in 1983 in a class in Astoria Oregon, I did my open water in Puget Sound. I have dove in those chilly waters, I have dove in the warm waters and I have dove in the land lock dive locations. I now live in a land lock state yes. My certifying agency was NAUI and I heard the arguements from them in 1983 about how PADI was destroying the dive industry and eveyone was going to die becuase of it back then. I bought into all the arguments against shorter classes back then and I have not seen those dire predictions materilize. I am now in the PADI system training as a dive pro.

Nice assumptions, I won't make the same assumptions about you, or anyone else. It wouldn't matter if they were a new diver or Cousteau himself. Everyone may have a vaild arguement right up to the point that they try to diminish a person to support their position, like you just did.

 

[endurodog]

Thal I do understand what your saying but it is that best data out there? Is there other data sets I have missed? Can you direct me towards a more complete or accurate set of data?

 

[endurodog]

For clarifying. When I did my OW course with NAUI in 1983 PADI was all ready making a move towards shorter and easier courses. They were not as short as today but PADI saw a value in those courses for a number of reasons, a large one being money, there is no denying that.

These arguments have been going on since then and I have no idea how much before then.

 

[Brendon]

I bought into all the arguments against shorter classes back then and I have not seen those dire predictions materilize.

I doubt that you would see it given my previous statement. Also I would include alot has change since then, diving has gotten safer in some ways. Thats not to include shorter classes. If anything, the advancements we have made in this industry have merely off set the cause's of accidents. So it would seem little has changed to the naked eye.

Everyone may have a vaild arguement right up to the point that they try to diminish a person to support their position, like you just did.

Yes you are correct, I did do that. However it doesn't change the point regardless of my reasons for stating it. In training to be a dive professional is much different then being one, or being a good one for that matter also to include time spent doing it or working in this field for sometime in some fashion or another. Thats how I view the statements of others. What are they really bringing to the table? A well earned opinion or just something you heard from someone else. You argue and argue for no other reason then to waste others time trying to prove a point you have no real knowledge of. Why? You bring little to the table, yet you ask us to accept it as if it was the last supper. You are also arguing with a guy that has been doing this for along time. He has made valid statements and you counter with blah, blah, blah. Really thats what you take from this? Next time maybe you could stop and listen, take it for what it worth.

 

[Thalassamania]

Thal I do understand what your saying but it is that best data out there? Is there other data sets I have missed? Can you direct me towards a more complete or accurate set of data?

That is the only data out there, and even it is quite incomplete, not to mention incomparable, which is why I have to fall back to the position that since the scientific diving community has a virtually perfect safety record, though scientific diving is not all that dissimilar to recreational diving in terms of time/depth/conditions, it logically follows that the recreational community should be able to reduce its risks by borrowing from the scientific community model.

 

[endurodog]

Brandon you just keep trying to demean me, is that the best you can do? I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing. I have tried to back out of the arguements by saying here is my opinion then I get blasted for my opinion. I have listened, I have heard the arguments, we disagree on some facts and I have even asked Thal for futher facts and I really would like those if they are there. I have also stated in this thread that I believe there are other factors that have contributed to diving being less accident prone. If you would like me to list those I would be more than happy to, and they are well thought out and it's not just equipment.

You continue to deminish someones points in a arguement from what I see as a childish and a "Were better than you so just shut up and listen" position. In true internet forum you can attacc my spelllling next instead of the points. You know if you don't like the discussion going on, don't read it, or join it in a constructive way or keep trying to demean a person that doesn't drink your kool-aid. Your choice.

So is the only person that can have a vaild point in your opinion a fully trained dive professional? Everyone else that disagrees doesn't matter? Sorry I don't meet your expectations of someone that should have a position on this, no wait, I'm not sorry.

 

[endurodog]

That is the only data out there, and even it is quite incomplete, not to mention incomparable, which is why I have to fall back to the position that since the scientific diving community has a virtually perfect safety record, though scientific diving is not all that dissimilar to recreational diving in terms of time/depth/conditions, it logically follows that the recreational community should be able to reduce its risks by borrowing from the scientific community model.

I have to say in light of Brandon and Flots, I have enjoyed seeing Thals post on this and with only a few barbs thrown in at me personally it has been a good discussion in my opinion. Thal I have taken your arguements and respect them, it has given me a better understanding of some of the data than I had at the start of this discussion. While it doesn't change my position on the matter it has been civil with you for the most part and I appreciate that. Thanks for keeping your post that way. As even with good friends not everyone agrees on everything but those that can act in this manner show that it's just a difference of opinion and that is all, nothing worth bashing people over.

This post by Thal is a perfect example of that.

 

[Brendon]

Brandon you just keep trying to demean me, is that the best you can do?

NO... But im not interested in violating TOS. Im not demeaning you, just showing you your place on the totem pole.

I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing. I have tried to back out of the arguements by saying here is my opinion then I get blasted for my opinion.

I dont see you getting blasted. Im sorry you feel that way. Dont take it so personal. This is just a forum.

I have listened, I have heard the arguments, we disagree on some facts and I have even asked Thal for futher facts and I really would like those if they are there. I have also stated in this thread that I believe there are other factors that have contributed to diving being less accident prone

.

Something you should know about diving, it mostly theory and very few facts.

You continue to deminish someones points in a arguement from what I see as a childish and a "Were better than you so just shut up and listen" position. In true internet forum you can attacc my spelllling next instead of the points. You know if you don't like the discussion going on, don't read it, or join it in a constructive way or keep trying to demean a person that doesn't drink your kool-aid. Your choice.

First of all there is no "we" here. No one told you to shut up, just listen you might learn more. Im not taking anyones side, though it may seem you are on the wrong one...

So is the only person that can have a vaild point in your opinion a fully trained dive professional? Everyone else that disagrees doesn't matter? Sorry I don't meet your expectations of someone that should have a position on this, no wait, I'm not sorry.

That would depend on the subject matter, in this particular topic "YES". I have asked you a few questions in the last couple of posts, I have yet to see an answer. Your response to me has been no more then crying foul.

To get back on topic, I believe what Thal has clearly stated.

it logically follows that the recreational community should be able to reduce its risks by borrowing from the scientific community

Is true, and makes more sense then anything else said here in regards to this topic.

 

[endurodog]

NO... But im not interested in violating TOS. Im not demeaning you, just showing you your place on the totem pole.

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Haaa and there it is, my place on the totem pole, who said there is places on the totem pole and who made you the police of those places. This statement by you says a ton about you and what you think of others. If you think your statements are not bashing again, that says a ton. You don't need to apologize I have seen enough debates on message boards to not be offended. It's always the same weather it's me or someone else. There are always those that exude the same attitudes be in scuba, motorcycles, photo, dogs, ect. All the boards have the same personalities.

FWIW in my day job I am a so called expert in my field and am contacted by many around. I have been involved in the training for years of those entering my field and then for over 12 years an evaluator of others and there is no way I would ever make that kind of a statement to someone new just entering the field or in the field forever that I was showing them their place. New to old have vaild points and I try to learn from them all.

Now what questions do you have of me? I have given my background on diving, I have given the basis for my beliefs, and why I belive the way I do. Is there something I can clear up for you on that. But should I even try because your mind is made up on the issue and me as a whole.