PADI vs NAUI

[Cacia]

I like NAUI better....it doesn't really matter that much, imo

once you survive your first 100 dives, etc

I think doffing and donning your gear at the bottom is the most useful skill.

 

[Walter]

Do you think your dive organization is going to stand behind you if you get sued by some crazy that went out and hurt themselves and is not a member of the RSTC.

Yes. Also, and more importantly, my insurance company will stand with me in court.

At least in court you can say you and your training organization followed these “RSTC” universal standards agreed upon by the majority of the largest diving instructional institutes.

That won't impress the jury after expert witnesses describe how poor those standards are. You'll be better off pointing to your agency's standards since every agency has higher standards than the RSTC.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Compare RSTC standards to NAUI, CMAS, SEI, IANTD, SDI, or most others and you will see how laughable the RSTC standards are. They don't even look like standards. More like an outline of standards. Hold up in a courtroom? C'mon be serious. Get any half decent instructor up there to describe an actual class and the jury will wonder what good RSTC standards are.

I know my agency will stand behind me as will my insurance company especially when I'm adding or teaching some of that "dangerous" stuff because it is in our standards.

So what if some people don't use a BC? You don;t really need one if you have your weighting down. In fact one thing I am going to try this year is diving like Mike - Nelson - that is. I have a quarry with a shop that's been open since 1960. He has all kinds of vintage stuff I can use and am going to. What some call dangerous is how it all actually started. Only thing I'm not going to do is dig up the old Popular Mechanics that tells you how to make a scuba rig from old CO2 fire extinguishers, surplus army web belts, and double hose reg from the sears catalog. But it would be fun.

The other thing is no crazy would be a member of the RSTC. Individuals, even crazy ones cannot be members, only agencies can and they can be denied membership for BS reasons. Depends on who is trying to do what and who has the most to lose if standards were actually toughened up.

 

[aquaregia]

Yes, I forgot AAUS, probably one of the best US dive organizations, but not mainstream recreational diving, with a probably .001% worldwide market share. See how that flies worldwide when you whip out your AAUS card.

AAUS is not a recreational diving organization at all. They also don't certify divers, they certify programs to be exempt from OSHA commercial diver standards for scientific work. Then the institution trains you to the agreed upon standards. You can get a card from them now I believe if you order it, but I wasn't issued one, nor does it mean anything because you'd have to go through a lot of the steps again if you fail to renew or change institutions.

I'm sure Thal will correct me if I'm mistaken.

 

[Thalassamania]

Guys, we are talking about “recreational diving” worldwide here. Do you really think the French and CMAS really care about AAUS. They always tell me they, (CMAS) are the best and only REAL divers. Like I care what they think. I see what they do. Allot of it is crazy and dangerous. I don’t know if they were trained that way or not. No BCD a hard back, no octopus, and no weights, no computer, in warm water with only a skin. But they did have a buddy.

There are two different CMASs, one is the certification agency that has grown out of (mainly) American agencies refusing to play by the accepted rules, the other is CMAS the "World Federation of Diving" that existed to facilitate communication and to establish equivalencies between the national federations of different countries. I assume you are talking of some members of the former.

We are talking about PADI, NAUI, and worldwide recognition. The guy that does 5-10 dives a year on vacation in BFE. Yes, I forgot AAUS, probably one of the best US dive organizations, but not mainstream recreational diving, with a probably .001% worldwide market share. See how that flies worldwide when you whip out your AAUS card. You’ll probably get allot of people that say WFT in BFE.

There is no such thing as an AAUS card. AAUS divers have individual university cards. I have used my U.C. Berkeley Card (number 201, issued in 1973) all over the world and no one has ever had any problem renting me gear, selling me air or taking me out on a boat. I've never, ever, had a WTF response. I have had a "tell me more" response.

I said the instructor is the most important aspect of diver training. With any agency I have seen terrible divers from great organizations. They probably had a terrible instructor, or pressure from the boss at some vacation spot to cert them in 3-4 days. I know a guy who became a CD over dinner, he was an OWI. Like I said it’s the individual instructors training that make good divers, not the organization and their conscious if they have one to see that they made a good and safe diver before they cert them.

You are missing the point. No on is disagreeing with what you say here, as far as it goes. We are just pointing out that what you are saying is less than half the story.

As far as the RSTC goes, everything about diving is the money. You would be crazy if you just taught to the RSTC minimum standards. But if not them, then who?

If the standards are crap ... well, the standards are crap. Crappy standards are worse than none at all.

Do you think your dive organization is going to stand behind you if you get sued by some crazy that went out and hurt themselves and is not a member of the RSTC.

Yes, do you have any objective evidence that points otherwise?

At least in court you can say you and your training organization followed these “RSTC” universal standards agreed upon by the majority of the largest diving instructional institutes.

That's BS. The test is not what other agencies might or might not approve of. The test is the credibility of the experts who describe what a reasonable person would do. I know, I done it often enough.

In other words the people that crank out the most divers and have the most money. But in court it works, the jury goes oh yea it must be good they all agreed, unless you’re a real screw up. But we are off the NAUI vs PADI thing again.

That's simply not the case.

Do you think Brown eggs are better than White eggs?

It depends on where you live, in some places: "Brown eggs are local eggs and local eggs are best."

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Do you think your dive organization is going to stand behind you if you get sued by some crazy that went out and hurt themselves and is not a member of the RSTC.

Yes, I do think so. As long as I acted within the standard set by my agency and did what a reasonable and prudent person would do, my agency would certainly stand behind me ... and they are not part of the RSTC.

At least in court you can say you and your training organization followed these “RSTC” universal standards agreed upon by the majority of the largest diving instructional institutes. In other words the people that crank out the most divers and have the most money. But in court it works, the jury goes oh yea it must be good they all agreed, unless you’re a real screw up. But we are off the NAUI vs PADI thing again. Do you think Brown eggs are better than White eggs?

I think your eggs are a bit on the scrambled side. Court cases aren't going to be based on an agency's standards. Under the right circumstances, a competent attorney could easily demonstrate that the RSTC standards are inadequate for their stated purpose. That is why almost every diving lawsuit gets settled out of court, with a gag order attached as part of the settlement ... because RSTC members know how weak their standards are, and they don't want to risk having to defend them in court.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Cacia]

Your best defense is to never buddy dive, that is the biggest trap out there.

State right out of the hatch, in front of everyone you are a solo diver with a solo partner

 

[Rhenry]

At this point in time, it does not really matter as to who certifies you. They all carry the same weight in the diving world. No one agency has any more legitimacy that any other. It is a sad state of affairs, but this is the way it is.
My premise from an earlier post still holds true. We need one overall certification agency that has the effect of law, and will be the only agency that can certify anyone in the U.S. as a diver.
Many have said this will dilute the standards such as they are, this may be true initially, but the court system will force the standards to go up. The other argument is this will reduce competition. The Ford dealer comes to mind, while there are 100's of ford dealers that al sell ford products. each one is different and each sells the product with different value added items such as a life time oil change at my dealership etc. Each sells cars at different prices, and each is unique but they are all Ford dealers. Add the GM a and other car dealers each with their own brand but all must follow and adhere to the safety standards.
We as the dive community should have the same thing, one agency that has the effect of law that is the only one who can certify anyone as a diver.

 

[Blackwood]

We as the dive community should have the same thing, one agency that has the effect of law that is the only one who can certify anyone as a diver.

Why do we need/want that?

Is a system premised upon probably sucking initially but being theoretically improved via litigation even worth mentioning?

 

[endurodog]

There is only 1 way to get to one agency. Gov involvement. We don't want that.

What is the reason for wanting only one agency as a certifier? Is it not working the way it is? When I say working I know it leaves it open but lets qualify what is working. Working is accidents and injury stuff. People are being injured in diving accidents at the lowest rates ever and I thought that was the idea of basic certifications. No doubt there are those on here that want people trained to a much higher level but to what ends? Don't take it wrong I believe in more training coming from a very lengthy OW course but really what are we trying to accomplish?