PADI tables finally going away?

[Kingpatzer]

So... keep on teaching them how to use this tool:

While I teach them how to use this one:

​

I'm a woodworker. I even took some wood working classes in college (they were part of the art department).

For the first 2 semesters, we used only hand tools - so as to learn the properties of the various types of wood, as well as to learn how to work slowly and carefully with our tools.

To this day, the most well crafted wood items are made by hand using hand tools. Computer controlled cutting tools are making some in roads, but the items that garner respect and intrinsic value use the first drill, not the second.

I understand the analogy you're making, and I don't disagree with your point that the average diver is going to be an average diver -- just like an average wood worker is going to be an average wood worker -- and thus using the average tools well is important.

What I think you may miss is that there is a value in tables beyond their dive planning functions.

When I was taking my calc I through III courses in college, we graphed out nearly everything by hand. By the time I was done with those courses, I could look at a wide range of equations and accurately describe their general shape and behavior by intuition. At that point a graphic calculator became my tool of choice -- but it was because I wanted the messy details handled for me -- I already knew the general answer, I just wanted a few minor blanks filled in.

Computers in diving are much the same way. Once the diver has a strong grasp on the general look typical dive profiles have, then using the computer is great. But prior to that it encourages some pretty shoddy dive planning (particularly if the students are using lower-end computers).

All of this points in some way to the inadequacy of class time in the typical dive class room, and in that there is no variety required in training dive profiles, so students in general have insufficient time and practical practice to obtain an intuitive grasp of what the computer is telling them.

Given that lack of classroom time, it may be best to teach the students more about computers and perhaps even drop tables. But I'd concede that not because I think that computers are superior or that tables have no use. I'd concede that because I don't think what tables provide to the user can be absorbed in the time or space of a typical OW class.

 

[DevonDiver]

Going to 120 or 130 for me is not a problem. If it was I wouldn't be diving to that depth on air, simple.

I've done air dives to 250ft. I felt fine also. In control of everything!

The only clue I had that narcosis was present came after the dive ended.... when I realized that I had classic narcotic amnesia.

Like it or not, everyone suffers some mental degradation from narcosis.... but the classic issue...is that it may not be apparent to the diver concerned.

The rudimentary tests used on AOW/Deep courses to test for narcosis really don't cover every subtle aspect of it. And, definitely, how you feel is never going to be an accurate test for it...

Doing mental calculations is not brain surgery. Everyone who is addicted to their computers seems to think it's critical that the whole bottom time recalculation every foot up or down is life or death, it's not. Every 10 feet is adequate.

Welcome to the forum...Mr Best Case Scenario Diver!

One thing I learned in scuba diving is that... when the ********** hits the fan...and you most need it.... the brain is the least reliable instrument you possess.

 

[Gen San Chris]

Until Padi says Do Not Teach then I will continue to do so! There is a lot of useful information on the RDP which makes it a handy tool to have! One day when Computers are cheap enough to throw in with a training package then the RDP might disappear but until that time, complain as you wish but its still got to be taught!

 

[dschonbrun]

The tables are in the computer... and the computer calculates Nitrogen loading second by second. No table based plan can be that accurate... so the table plan is always more conservative. For some, that' fine. For others.. they may prefer to take more risks by getting closer to their actual NDL.

For professionals and charters... we usually set a time and depth limit for the dive... providing a level of conservatism. In groups, we offer divers on computers 10 minutes extentions to the overal Bottom Time planned. For divers we know and trust, they can stay down as long as they like on unguided dives as long as they have their own computer and have proven they are competent with it.

All that said, no dive charter can be held responsible for the fact that a diver went on a bender the night before, or didn't adequately hydrate, or has a medical condition they didn't report. We can ask questions, provide liquids, and observe our patrons... but because someone gets bent is not necessarily the fault of the dive operator. Often it's not our fault at all. In the event someone does get bent, having a dive computer actually provides a legal benefit to the Dive operator as they can review the actual dive profile of the diver and see if directions were followed or ignored. As well, the hospital can do blood alchohol tests for a legal defense.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

If someone gets hurt in a dive due to overstaying their time or exceeding their depth it is clearly not your fault. The planning of the dive is the responsibility of the diver. Not the dive op. If the divers cannot do this they should stay in the pool. I decide what my bottom time will be and the depth. THe ops only say in this is by choosing a location that limits the depth and saying if you are not back on board by such and such time you swim home. I also determine the appropriate surface interval and the limits of the next dive. Again the ops choice of site and departure time are for their convenience and do not determine if I want to push my limits.

I would love to see the reaction Gary Gentile, Richie Kohler, or John Chatterton would dispaly if they showed up on a boat with no computer but did have analog gauges, a watch and tables and were told they could not do a dive. I would never use an op that won't let me plan a table dive and not use my comp. How do you determine a divers level of competence? DO you check their logbook, ask them where they dived, or just look for a computer? I usually have a computer and a bottom timer. But I do not use the computer to plan dives when diving for fun. In fact it is usually in gauge mode. I have many of the tables in my head and will cut others on v-planner if it's a dive that requires it.

Are you saying to do a 115 foot dive followed by a say 90 footer I would not be allowed to do it if I showed up with my bottom timer and an analog depth gauge and watch for back up? Guarantees that I'd be looking for another op that serves divers as opposed to underwater tourists.

 

[dmoore19]

In my class we learned to use the eRDP for planning a dive. In the log book I purchased there is a copy of the tables, I learned to use them to plan a dive on my own. I purchased my gear when I started the class including a computer VEO 250. I can (and do) plan my dives using whichever one is available at the time. I am not an expert on any of them but I can work my way through them. I also have an air intigrated computer that I bought. (love technology, like learning how to use it) I have a watch, with depth gauge, 2 computers and an SPG. I don't cary tables in my BC pocket (maybe I should?) I keep my dive log current and on paper not just on my computer as some have indicated. I work the eRDP or the tables (depending on if I am dry or not) for every dive I do. In my humle and inexperienced opinion, beacuse I am a underwater tourist but I am an informed underwater tourist, I think that ALL of this information should be taught and as with the rest of diving it is up to you as an individual to plan for your own safety. Though any of them will work, it is your personal responsibility to insure your own safety. There is too much denial of personal responsibility in the country! If you want to dive, be aware of the consequeces. Quit trying to blame others!

 

[SCUBA482]

As a recently certified OW diver I WANTED to learn the tables. In addition to understanding the tables, I bought a DC and had my Instructor show me how it works. A brief overview I admit, but more on just the basics to understand. I think the RDP should stay in place. Every person has a different learning method and like other training, using a multimedia type format will lend to better understanding of dive theory by more people. Today I use the RDP and have two DC's on my dives. A bit overkill probably, but then again I'm a gadget guy anyway.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

You are too deluded and dangerous for me to dive with my friend. Have fun, but not with me around. You can easily tell you are narced when your gauge reads below 80fsw. You may not feel it, but that doesn't mean your faculties aren't compromised. For most, narcosis is a silent killer. Perhaps you are suffering from surface narcosis. I don't know that anyone has suggested that in this thread. I certainly have not done so. There are a few more windmills to the south, should you deign to tilt at them as well.

I can see by you resorting to insults and personal attacks with clever one liners this debate has gone south and not really worth my time to continue.

We're going to just continue going around and around and get nowhere. I'm way to busy to for this., I need to get into the shop now and tool up more Freedom Plates.
Freedom Plates: Something my deluded brain came up with while I was suffering from surface narcosis

You have yourself a great day there Net Doc, and enjoy your computer!

Out

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I've done air dives to 250ft. I felt fine also. In control of everything!

The only clue I had that narcosis was present came after the dive ended.... when I realized that I had classic narcotic amnesia.

Like it or not, everyone suffers some mental degradation from narcosis.... but the classic issue...is that it may not be apparent to the diver concerned.

The rudimentary tests used on AOW/Deep courses to test for narcosis really don't cover every subtle aspect of it. And, definitely, how you feel is never going to be an accurate test for it...



Welcome to the forum...Mr Best Case Scenario Diver!

One thing I learned in scuba diving is that... when the ********** hits the fan...and you most need it.... the brain is the least reliable instrument you possess.

Wow, a 250 foot air dive, congradulations, you're a hero!
So tell me, what computer were you using, or were you using tables. And you mentioned you had amnesia, what did you forget? To look at your computer or watch or depth guage? And how do you know you forgot anything if you can't remember what it is that you forgot? You must have done OK because you're back here posting on SB.

Why did PADI teach and still do teach recreational tables for years with a 130 ft. NDL on air using tables. I guess all those divers back then must have been nuts to dive to 130 on air, amazing anybody came back and could remember a thing. They must have been screwing up left and right from that subtle unnoticable narc hit and dropping like flies.

The subtle aspects of narcosis: I dive to 110 to 130 feet occasionally to check my anchor, then usually will begin up a wall or pinnacle and spend the rest of my dive in the 80 to 50 foot range. The time spent deep is generally minimal and it is task oriented. When I get down there I don't ferget what to do and I don't forget what heading I need to take to reach the intended target. So in this respect I do not consider myself too narced to do what I need to do.
Everybody's different with how narcosis affects them. Some people can't function at 80 feet and some can go to 250 feet. 150 is my number where narcosis becomes annoying, but at 130 I still function and can do what I need to do. I know you will argue with me, but in this case all I can say is speak for yourself. You don't know me and I don't know you.

Lastly, when the **** hit's the fan, it was your brain that got you down there and it's your brain that's going to get you out. Stop, think, act. Your brain controlls your body and if that goes it's game over. No computer in the world will save you at that point.

This thread was originallyabout computers vs tables wasn't it. Darn I forgot!

 

[DevonDiver]

The amnesia was post-dive. During the dive itself, I felt fine... everything went exactly as planned - including some relatively complex penetration (heavy, heavy silt). Awareness of time, depth, air and buddy were not effected.

However, the goal of the dive/s was to survey/map a virgin wreck...and it was amazing how little information was being brought back up...despite everyone involved trying their hardest.

For example, on one of the dives, I aimed to count port-holes around the stern and provide a basic layout of the rear compartments. Back on the boat, I couldn't remember anything in terms of what I had counted... the number of portholes, compartments...or which portholes corresponded to which rooms... etc.

What I learnt from this was that - whilst the dive felt fine... and went fine....I was heavily narked. I seriously doubt my ability to function if anything unexpected had arisen. Kinda like I was performing fine on automatic pilot with the basic, ingrained, dive functions - but manual control (emergency response) could have been a nightmare.

As for recreational limits...are you aware of some agencies' views on 30m+? Check out the GUE stance on END.....