PADI tables finally going away?

[notivago]

And as I have said before, you are grossly overstating the effect of the cost of one item of dive equipment on diver acquisition in Brasil. There is simply no relationship between the GDI in Brasil, the cost of dive computers, and the number of people who decide to learn to dive. It is everything--the whole package--related to diving in Brasil that makes it unaffordable to the vast majority of adults there. There is no way you will ever convince me that those people who have the means to take scuba diving courses and to pay for dive trips also lack the means to buy a dive computer. You yourself said that your dive buddy, who has a high-income job at a bank, doesn't have a dive computer. Do you honestly believe he can't afford one? It is simply a choice about what to spend fun money on for the most pleasure--like whether to go away for the weekend to the mountains, to buy a couple of new outfits in the latest fashion at Shopping Morumbi, to buy a new car when the one you've got is still running well, etc. Upper-middle-class Brazilians (who, by and large, make up the mass of divers there) are status-hungry, and that dive cert, that weekend away, that new car, those new clothes--they all confer status; I can only imagine the blank looks on friends' and relatives' faces when shown a dive computer! Why would anybody want to spend fun money on something like that when there's no "status return" on the investment?

There are some intelligent arguments being given in this thread for maintaining instruction in table use, but this specific argument, citing the purchase cost of dive computers in Brasil, is quite simply untenable.

I must say that I find you a little prejudiced, for example, none of us three come from higher middle class, I myself am from a very low class family, attended public school, public university which I dropped due to familiar problems and this friend of mine although he earns very well now, he has just worked his way up.

Until we started diving we used to enjoy inexpensive entertainment: RPG, table gaming and world of warcraft, 1/4 of people on the software house where I work are divers, most of them are not high classes. And certainly are not status hungry, most are certified but rarely dive due to the high cost of it.

Second, assuming that it is true that the mass of the divers come from the upper high middle class around here due to the already obscenity of the cost of diving around here I don't see how it is an good argument turning it into an even more elite sport by forcing the use of computers. It sound's to me very callous: scr*** those folks, only the rich can dive.

And yes, regardless of who is the public that currently dive, the current cost to certify for OW is about R$ 1500, course, trip for checkout, weekend acomodations, boat, equipament rental, fins and snorkel all included.

Forcing a computer would bring that to at least 2500, which is a huge increase in the cost and quite prohibitive for almost everyone that I dive with except my manager buddy, including myself that have a tendency to irresponsibly buy stuff that I can't afford.

 

[ScubaSteve]

If your computer fails, you don't need to call the dives "for the next days" but only the rest of the dives for that day. Twelve hours out of the water is enough on a recreational dive, based on the decompression theory used to base dive tables on, to start diving with a fresh computer.

But diving tables would not see you calling off twelve hours of diving at all.

The problem I have with this thread is that nobdy has given a good reason to NOT teach both tables and computers. Not one single post that even comes close (IMO) to a reasonable explanation/reason. I accept that each have pro's/con's but to eliminate one or the other IMO is just stupid. You are telling one group or the other to **** off and go elsewhere rather than being flexible and accommodating.

 

[The Chairman]

The problem I have with this thread is that nobdy has given a good reason to NOT teach both tables and computers.

I teach what my students want to learn. If they don't want tables (big surprise) then I don't teach them.

You are telling one group or the other to **** off and go elsewhere rather than being flexible and accommodating.

I haven't suggested that at all. I have suggested that we should be teaching students to use the tools they will be diving with. If that's tables, then fine. Here in Key Largo, a PDC is in order.

 

[Puffer Fish]

Capillary gauges can give a bad reading for several reasons...having done several thousand dives with them.

Do a big drop off of a boat and hit the water the wrong way and you can jam water into the gauge.

Have salt crystals clog the tube.

Get sand in the tube from diving in surf.

Anyone that thinks any dive instrument cannot fail or give a wrong reading needs to reevalate their viewpoint.

Watches can and do fail in a way that cannot be easily seen.

"I have seen no greater faith in all of Israel! I have seen them fail. That would be plural. There's a reason we don't use capillary tube depth gauges any more."

Okay, Pete, I'll bite. How in the world does a capillary depth gauge fail? It's just a simple, clear plastic tube plugged off at one end. What is there to fail?

Capillary depth gauges still have a following among some in the tech crowd. Several divers I know still use capillary depth gauges for deco stops.

 

[notivago]

I teach what my students want to learn. If they don't want tables (big surprise) then I don't teach them.

Theirs is not to decide what to learn, that is why they are students, because they don't know, so they are not geared to know what is better until they are given enough knowledge to know it.

I really think this is a problem with diving that I see around with most the diving operations that I have knowledge, students are viewed too much as income and not the ignorant human beings that they are, with all the implications and meanings loaded.

If the student is too lazy to study something that is paramount to his own safety, just shave it. Is it too much trouble to properly train for cave diving? No problem just go there and dive anyway.

More often than not I see divers that have no regard at all for the dangers of diving(considering how newbie I am, this is frightening) and that stems from the attitude that was learned from the diving industry that is more worried trying to push people to the water than properly training them to survive there.

Teaching table comes with very little cost except for some effort from the student, very little effort.

This attitude is very bad for the diving community, sell shining toys that do theirs work for them and leave people ignorant, put them in the water asap and none the wiser.

Then the forum has to have a passings and I&A section.

 

[The Chairman]

This attitude is very bad for the diving community, sell shining toys that do theirs work for them and leave people ignorant, put them in the water asap and none the wiser.

There are so many problems with what you wrote, but I am heading out of town. I will address but two of your fallacies:

Tables do not give you what you need to know about decompression theory any more or any less than a PDC. You claim to be new to diving, and this demonstrates how much you don't understand. If your instructor taught you this, then they did you a great disservice. There is far more to understanding deco theory than mindlessly tracing your finger to find a letter group.

Then the forum has to have a passings and I&A section.

Wow. Any more baseless accusations you want to throw at me? I guess when the facts and logic don't go your way, you resort to these ignorant innuendos. With these insults, I am done discussing this with you.

 

[notivago]

There are so many problems with what you wrote, but I am heading out of town. I will address but two of your fallacies:

Tables do not give you what you need to know about decompression theory any more or any less than a PDC.

Never said that. But teaching the tables give one more tool for people to deal with planning, I am not against teaching computers as well, but it seem to me irresponsible not to provide the knowledge necessary to use so simple a tool, I am against dropping tables from teaching programs.

The reasoning that they do not want to learn tables is not strong enough, instead to acquiesce to lazy complains they should be taught the usefulness of having one more tool for they own security.

Besides previous to doing the course, people don't even know what are the tables, how can they opt out to not learn something that they don't even know that exists or comprehend? If they do it is do some diver pushing them in that direction.

You claim to be new to diving,

Do you dare to dispute my claim to ignorance?!

and this demonstrates how much you don't understand.

I understand perfectly that the compression theory does not depends on known the tables, just like knowing calculus does not require an HP.

If your instructor taught you this, then they did you a great disservice. There is far more to understanding deco theory than mindlessly tracing your finger to find a letter group.

In fact, they didn't, they explained the depth effects, then the empiric tests that resulted in the math model that created the tables and then we were taught how to use the tables, then he told us about computers and how each one were different one from the another and that the best way to learn how to use is to buy one and read the manual(RTFM).

Wow. Any more baseless accusations you want to throw at me? I guess when the facts and logic don't go your way, you resort to these ignorant innuendos. With these insults, I am done discussing this with you.

I Apologize if this came came across as an attack directed at you, it was not the mark. But this is simply an observation of what I have seem on my few dives, and from people around me.

For example, I have a friend that was certified OW without attending theory classes, did only 2 dives straight in open sea, his "instructor" sent him beforehand the PADI videos and in his vacation he went in and certified. He learned very little of diving and were he not lucky enough work were there are so many divers, maybe he would not be around now-days.

Another example a trio of friends of mine that are OW went on vacation and the DM took them on a dive of 42m deep and another in a wreck.

In one of my trips the operation capitain wanted to bring the group to explore a "small cave" that he had found, as it was the cave entrance were at 12m and the exit at 20m. The group threw a party for him right on the spot, but I went ballistic on him as the dive would be far outside of our safety parameters in many accounts, yet he ended taking many people their, my wife included that chastised me on being a PITA and too strict, told me that I ruin the fun of others.

I can go on on examples of disregard of security policies to please the client, to sell the product. That is not right, that gets people killed.

So, including computers in a course is a total thumbs up if you find a way to encompass all computers or at least give a general idea, but dropping tables seem to me an unjustifiable idea.

 

[Paladin]

Capillary gauges can give a bad reading for several reasons...having done several thousand dives with them.

Do a big drop off of a boat and hit the water the wrong way and you can jam water into the gauge.

Have salt crystals clog the tube.

Get sand in the tube from diving in surf.

Anyone that thinks any dive instrument cannot fail or give a wrong reading needs to reevalate their viewpoint.

Watches can and do fail in a way that cannot be easily seen.

1. Suck the water out of the gauge before each submersion. Problem solved.

2. Clean out the tube after every day of diving. Problem solved.

3. Clean out the tube after every day of diving. If you're worried about sand getting into it from the surf, stuff a small bit of rolled up cloth into the channel at the open end of the tube until you clear the surf. Remove it before diving. Problem solved.

I have used a capillary depth gauge since 1965. No failures. Ever. I have a Healthways cap depth gauge that has been on my wrist for every dive since I bought it new back in the 1970s. I have had it in all kinds of diving conditions. Clear water, muddy water, silty water, sand, you name it. After 30+ years of use, the tube finally turned a dark yellow. I replaced it with a new tube and the gauge is good for another 30+. The only reason one could fail would be neglect. Keep it clean after diving it and it just keeps on going dependably.

However, to be fair, I am anal about caring for my equipment. After each day of diving, I clean and check all the gear I used, even to disassembling my regulators to clean them, dry them, and check for any problems that might be developing. The cap depth gauge is taken apart, cleaned with a pipe cleaner and dried before being put back together. Its mechanical companion is also cleaned and dried after each dive. This is how I was taught back in the '60s and I have never had any sort of gear failure. (Knock on wood!)

 

[TSandM]

After each day of diving, I clean and check all the gear I used, even to disassembling my regulators to clean them, dry them, and check for any problems that might be developing. The cap depth gauge is taken apart, cleaned with a pipe cleaner and dried before being put back together. Its mechanical companion is also cleaned and dried after each dive.

I dove four of the last six days . . . having to do this would make me insane.

 

[Quero]

You are telling one group or the other to **** off and go elsewhere rather than being flexible and accommodating.

You quoted me in your reply, so I am supposing you are addressing me with this accusation.

Maybe you have not actually read all of the posts in this novelette of a thread, but a few pages back I said:

As far as what I personally do--I listen to my students. There's not a lot to be gained by forcing students to march through table calculations if they are convinced that they will only be planning and executing their dives with a computer, and there's no point in teaching only computers to people who won't be buying one any time soon. I will teach what the student is motivated to learn. If they want computer only, they will get that. If they want tables only, they will get that. If they want both, they get both.

Exactly how is that inflexible and lacking of accommodation to students' needs?