PADI responded to their OW swim requirement...

[Teamcasa]

Thalassamania, No doubt some aspects of diving require a great deal of skill and physical abilities. I was certified originally in 1969 by a YMCA instructor that was drill sergeant tough. Long ocean swims and skills tests that by today’s standards would make the fittest, skilled diver cringe. But then I was 18, a water polo player, competitive distance swimmer and a wrestler. The more he asked of me the better I liked it.

Fast forward 38+ years. I am an executive, overweight and recently quit smoking. However, when my lovely bride decided scuba was for her, we took a class at a local LDS. I was able to complete the swim part faster than all the other classmates (that’s my competitive nature) and found I was perfectly capable of picking up diving again where I left off. My lovely bride struggle a bit at first but she is coming around.

The type of diving my lovely bride and I do is purely recreational. No long surface swims against the current or excessively deep diving. No deep wrecks, caves or deep caverns. We also do training dives, equipment tweaks and navigation practice. However, we mostly just cruise around the reefs looking at all the beauty God has provided. We shoot some video, pick up litter and when we are done, we sit and enjoy a nice meal, a great view with friends.

I am not at all suggesting the swim skills be reduced or sacrificed at the expense of safety but one has to realize what kind of diving the student is going to do and train them accordingly. I have no doubt that no one in my recent class, including the instructors would have passed the requirements my first instructor had, but then again, my lovely bride and I would not be diving again now.

Dave

 

[Divedoggie]

Back in my day, I used to walk 10 miles barefoot, uphill in a snowstorm to school, and I liked it! Then I'd walk back home, uphill again in a blizzard, with no shirt on, and I liked it!

Then I'd do my homework for 18 straight hours and eat some breadcrumbs for dinner and breakfast. I was thankfull!

Back at school during studyhall, I would memorize the entire dictionary, and then help HP design the circuitry for this newfangled thing called a calculator. For gym class, I would run to the top of a 14,000 foot peak and do 1000 push-ups while I was up there.

That was just a warm up. I knew that someday I'd be a scubadiver, and I'd need to be ready for anything that could possibly ever happen. Even worse, someone might judge me for not being as skilled as they are.

So, still barefoot, I got my PhD in Physics and hung out with this Mr. Hawking guy for awhile.

I remember thinking, "I can hardly wait till 4th grade!"

 

[fisherdvm]

I think that if the diving industry reduce standard to get more people into diving, they have a concurrent obligation to teach these folks the danger of the diving environment.

How many times have I asked "isn't the water too rough", and get an anwer "its not bad at all, look at the harbor".... Then you go out in 4 to 5 ft waves.... I manage fine in rough sea, but many recreational divers might not.

You know, the recent case of the poor lady who drowned while her diving instructor was next to her, that is the case in point.... A divemaster or scuba instructor is not your safety net. You yourself are the safety net.

If you can not manage with waves, after waves, crashing over you, with or without a snorkel... You can be deep over your head...

Surely, this case in the Florida Keys is unsettled and undecided... I really question the instructor's wife comfort in water.... 10 minute treading water is not equal to adequate swimming skill.

 

[ams511]

If you look at the magazine, it's published in Florida and has a seperate editorial staff from PADI. It's just another magazine trying to take market shares where Skin Diver left off.

If you really want to complain about something, try the PADI Diving Society. PADI promotes it as if you're going to become a member of PADI. You don't get that until you're a Divemaster. I've had people ask if they are still certified, because their membership ran out.

Certifications are good for life, to my chagrin. Some sort of diving should be proven every year, to maintain your card.

That's completely false and shows a complete lack of knowledge about PADI. You must be trolling.

SSI, SDI, PDIC and others, but not PADI and NAUI. You are showing your ignorance once again.

Diving is a business and if the Instructor doesn't make money, s/he won't continue to teach. Most Independent Instructors fall by the wayside after they have trained their friends and family.

Randy,

Sport Diver is published by World Publications in Winter Park, Florida. The magazine was started in the early 90's and was not the official PADI mag when it started. PADI partnered with them. I know this because I used do work with World Publications for close to a decade.

I agree certs for life is stupid, maybe people should be recertified after 5 years, I think once a year is a little strict. If you go with some sort of diving people will just pad the logs.

The McDonalds comparison was not trolling but my opinion. Look at LDS advertising being a PADI 5-star facility (are there 1-4 stars?). It is a marketing gimmick, the same as a franchise. Does a 5-star training facility provide better OW training than a non-5-star facility? Probably not and I am sure PADI would agree, but it is implied in the ads at the LDS.

I am sure the market share of PADI and NAUI, dwarfs the other agencies you mentioned. PDIC according to their website has 207 instructors. I am sure the other agencies you are mentioning are using the LDS-Instructor tie in to take share away from PADI and NAUI. If I wanted to be an instructor I would just avoid them. Also I am not sure such a policy would hold under a legal challenge.

Diving may or may not be a business. I do not think any instructor gets into the business thinking he or she is going to make a fortune. It is a lifestyle decision, move to a tropical location and teach diving for a while. However, as reality sets in I am sure many leave the profession, especially as family expenses rise.

 

[lazyturtle]

How many times have I asked "isn't the water too rough", and get an anwer "its not bad at all, look at the harbor".... Then you go out in 4 to 5 ft waves.... I manage fine in rough sea, but many recreational divers might not.
............
If you can not manage with waves, after waves, crashing over you, with or without a snorkel... You can be deep over your head...

One of the things that I go over and over with students my classes is the ability to assess a dive BEFORE getting in the water. I think that every level of diver should be able (and trained) to determine what sort of dives are within their capability. If they look at the dive and say 'I can't do that' then they shouldn't. Swiming ability, dive experience, level of comfort in the water and even how they feel that day should all be taken into account when determining if a particular dive should be done.
I'd also say that most divers are 'fair-weather' divers, going out in the best conditions on the easiest dives (which there's nothing wrong with). Training should reflect the sorts of conditions that are expected locally. Living in Hawaii I certainly can't train someone to expect conditions in California (especially since I've never been diving there..). I've never had to swim 900 yards (1/2 a mile) before, during or after a dive, why should I force students to do so? I train my students to seek guidance upon arriving in conditions different than the ones they learned to dive in (i.e. learn to dive in Hawaii and go to Alaska: seek a dm, instructor or some other qualified and experienced person for guidance!).

 

[fisherdvm]

One of the things that I go over and over with students my classes is the ability to assess a dive BEFORE getting in the water. .

I am a believer, in that, you NEVER book a diving vacation. You book a vacation, and dive.

Why? Many resorts will not refund if you are ill. They give credit for a later date.

Many dive boats will leave dock, even when the weather is not suitable.

For that reason, a person should refrain from booking "diving vacation" to save a few bucks on dives.. Book your dives day, by day... Depending on your health, and weather.

 

[sweatfrog]

Sport Diver is published by World Publications in Winter Park, Florida. The magazine was started in the early 90's and was not the official PADI mag when it started. PADI partnered with them. I know this because I used do work with World Publications for close to a decade.

When Fred Garth started Sport Diver he created his own issues and the magazine suffered because of those problems. The magazine still has issues, but PADI doesn't run it. I agree, without PADI's support the magazine would be a dead issue.

I agree certs for life is stupid, maybe people should be recertified after 5 years, I think once a year is a little strict. If you go with some sort of diving people will just pad the logs.

I've always said that it takes about 3 days of two-tank dives to get people back into the swing of things. How about a Scuba Review every couple of years?

The McDonalds comparison was not trolling but my opinion. Look at LDS advertising being a PADI 5-star facility (are there 1-4 stars?). It is a marketing gimmick, the same as a franchise. Does a 5-star training facility provide better OW training than a non-5-star facility? Probably not and I am sure PADI would agree, but it is implied in the ads at the LDS.

The five stars are not signifying a restaurant, although that's the connotation that people assume incorrectly. It is different aspects of good customer service. In regard to marketing, nobody does it better than PADI. Everybody wins with whatever they market. Franchising however is not where PADI has any intention of going. It wouldn't fly for most Dive Stores either.

I am sure the market share of PADI and NAUI, dwarfs the other agencies you mentioned. PDIC according to their website has 207 instructors. I am sure the other agencies you are mentioning are using the LDS-Instructor tie in to take share away from PADI and NAUI. If I wanted to be an instructor I would just avoid them. Also I am not sure such a policy would hold under a legal challenge.

You're right about PADI's market share, but SSI rivals NAUI. Good competition begats more good competition.

Diving may or may not be a business. I do not think any instructor gets into the business thinking he or she is going to make a fortune. It is a lifestyle decision, move to a tropical location and teach diving for a while. However, as reality sets in I am sure many leave the profession, especially as family expenses rise.

People get into it because it's a passion. Not everyone is looking at moving. There are numerous people living in landlocked states who have no desire to move.

 

[jviehe]

I view these requirements as both a test of comfort in the water as well as a very basic check on the overall physical fitness of the student.

It has become abundantly clear to me that PADI does not enforce these watermanship standards.

When a violation of this training standard was reported in relation to the most serious possible outcome for a student, PADI did nothing substanitive. Supporting documentation an witness contact informantion was provided, and still nothing substanitive.

:shakes head and walks away:

Perhaps they just didnt enforce it in your case? Im not sure you can speak for their entire QA history.

 

[fisherdvm]

Criticism and litigation threatens organizations to higher standards. I think one of the reason why PADI require the 200 yr swim in England instead of the 300 yr snorkel is because of fear of litigation.

A clip from winkipedia:

PADI has been criticised for less-rigorous standards of training [citation needed], mainly due to the perception that PADI puts less emphasis on physical exercise than CMAS and other, non-commercial organisations[citation needed]. Despite this criticism, PADI is the only training agency in the world that regularily surveys newly certified divers and follows up any training standards violations via their own Quality Management department.

"Short Diving Courses" such as those taught via PADI were criticised in a U.K. Coroner's Court as being inadequate. During a coroner's court session in Plymouth, UK on 8 August 2006 expert witness Dr. Phil Bryson, Medical Director at Plymouth's Diving Diseases and Research Centre, said he was amazed beginners could be certified at advanced level after just eight dives. Another expert witness Mr. PC Peter Tapper, a police diver of Devon and Cornwall police, agreed [3][4] (Under British Common Law, a witness' opinion given at a Coroner's inquest is an expert opinion, not necessarily a fact, it carries more weight if it becomes a finding in the Coroner's report). Mr. Mark Caney Vice President, Training, Education and Memberships of PADI International Ltd UK later responded on the previously little known Ten Foot Stop web site[5] that according to statistics, the number of fatal diving accidents decreased from 1990s when the number of divers trained under PADI system increased. He further elaborated the meaning of "PADI Advanced Open Water Diver". In PADI system, divers with PADI Open Water Diver qualification can advance their open water diving skills and enhance their experiences in a controlled way. The qualification of PADI Advanced Open Water Diver differs from the BSAC's Advanced Diver qualification, in that the PADI Qualification requires a mere 11 dives, whereas the BSAC Qualification requires around 200 dives. The equivalent of PADI Advanced open water is the BSAC Ocean Diver

 

[jviehe]

Randy,

Sport Diver is published by World Publications in Winter Park, Florida. The magazine was started in the early 90's and was not the official PADI mag when it started. PADI partnered with them. I know this because I used do work with World Publications for close to a decade.

I agree certs for life is stupid, maybe people should be recertified after 5 years, I think once a year is a little strict. If you go with some sort of diving people will just pad the logs.

The McDonalds comparison was not trolling but my opinion. Look at LDS advertising being a PADI 5-star facility (are there 1-4 stars?). It is a marketing gimmick, the same as a franchise. Does a 5-star training facility provide better OW training than a non-5-star facility? Probably not and I am sure PADI would agree, but it is implied in the ads at the LDS.

I am sure the market share of PADI and NAUI, dwarfs the other agencies you mentioned. PDIC according to their website has 207 instructors. I am sure the other agencies you are mentioning are using the LDS-Instructor tie in to take share away from PADI and NAUI. If I wanted to be an instructor I would just avoid them. Also I am not sure such a policy would hold under a legal challenge.

Diving may or may not be a business. I do not think any instructor gets into the business thinking he or she is going to make a fortune. It is a lifestyle decision, move to a tropical location and teach diving for a while. However, as reality sets in I am sure many leave the profession, especially as family expenses rise.

A Five Star Rating means the shop has more requirements than a simple Dive Center rating, as does an IDC center. This includes

-a clean QA record for 12 months
-obtaining education, environment, and community involvement awards
-constant communication with customers
-recently teaching plenty of PADI classes and promoting and running trips

To me this indicates a higher quality PADI dive Center than the basic Dive Center level.