PADI responded to their OW swim requirement...

[O2BBubbleFree]

There are other options that you know nothing about and never considered, if it is arrogant of me to point this out, I beg your indulgence.

Thal (can I call you Thal?), you've mentioned the arrogance thing a couple of times, so either I didn't communicate it well, or I struck a nerve. Either way, I apologize.

Now, back to the issue, as you pointed out I do not know what drives SB's particular university requirements. And I really couldn't care less. However, thank you for illustrating the point that I was trying to make: that the university program is not the typical OW class, and the requirements that the university has in place (for whatever reason) should be understood before they are held up as an example for how the typical OW class should be conducted.

 

[fisherdvm]

Sorry, but to me that indicates you are shooting from the hip and not investigating before you form an opinion. It's exactly the opposite of what you believe it to be.

I think that what thal quoted for requirement to his entry OW class exceed that requirement for divemaster program in many cert org.. And greatly exceed NAUI's OW requirement (which is not actually too tough).

 

[Thalassamania]

Thal (can I call you Thal?), you've mentioned the arrogance thing a couple of times, so either I didn't communicate it well, or I struck a nerve. Either way, I apologize.

Now, back to the issue, as you pointed out I do not know what drives SB's particular university requirements. And I really couldn't care less. However, thank you for illustrating the point that I was trying to make: that the university program is not the typical OW class, and the requirements that the university has in place (for whatever reason) should be understood before they are held up as an example for how the typical OW class should be conducted.

What you fail to grasp (arrogant as it is for me to point it out) is that the entire recreational diving world is an outgrowth of the Scientific Diving Community. We started it, we created it and like Dr. Frankenstien we lost control of it; and it has, in most of our opinions, run amuck. So I feel some resonsibility for trying to help put it right or at least for perserving the things that we know that have been forgotten because we used a brain from, "er ... Abbie Somebody."

 

[jviehe]

Has anyone mentioned that ALL the agencies base this req on the WRSTC standard? I prefer to have my students to the Fin swim as Im looking for ability to fin, not to breaststroke.

(2) Physical Conditioning and Watermanship Evaluation. The student shall effectively
demonstrate basic watermanship ability by performing, to an instructor, the watermanship evaluation
required by a training organization. This watermanship evaluation shall include either: a)
continuous 200 yard (183 metre) surface distance swim and a 10 minute survival swim/float without
the use of mask, fins, snorkel or of other swimming aids; b) 300 yard swim using mask, fins and
snorkel, and a 10 minute survival swim/float without mask, fins, snorkel or other swimming aid. If
an exposure suit is used, the wearer must be neutrally buoyant at the surface.

http://www.wrstc.com/downloads.php

 

[DBailey]

Has anyone mentioned that ALL the agencies base this req on the WRSTC standard? I prefer to have my students to the Fin swim as Im looking for ability to fin, not to breaststroke.

http://www.wrstc.com/downloads.php

Somehow it would still be PADI's fault that the WRSTC made the requirements so easy.

 

[OHGoDive]

Don't underestimate the value of confidence. Swimming is essentiual to confidence in the water. It is not the end all, be all, but it is the foundation upon which the rest is built. Confidence is a diver's first line of defense against panic. Panic is the single most dangerous aspect of diving. Divers who panic can easily die. Having confidence in you abilities is the most important aspect in panic prevention.

I don't think anyone is dismissing confidence, in or out of the water, as a prerequisite for diving. I'm not an instructor, but I think it would be among one of the paramount considerations prior to teaching.

And, I think that the swimming requirements are intended to give an instructor just that information. I also happen to think that whether it's a 200 yard untimed swim or a 400 yard timed swim, you can get about the same information out of both, with respect to confidence in the water.

Seriously, you can complete the swimming portion, (and obviously the treading portion), without ever putting your face in the water. If someone does a 200 backstroke it seems like it might be a tip off to whether or not this student might have some issues with the mask clear/removal skills.

It seems that the swimming skills are primarily designed to guage in water confidence. Upping the criteria, in the hands of a conscientious instructor as Thal described, doesn't seem to be a problem.

On the other hand, since it seems that confidence assessment is the primary goal, it appears that 200 yards is just as acceptable.

Once your standard accomplishes the goal that it was designed to assess, anything else is unnecessary. If you have a higher standard, it should be effectively assessing something that the lower standard can not or does not.

Seems like Thals does, but, I don't think everyone who pushes higher standards can say that.

 

[fisherdvm]

The boyscout of america requires 75 yards of crawl stroke, and 25 yards of relaxed stroke. This is probably better than 200 yards of any style, IMHO.

 

[Thalassamania]

Has anyone mentioned that ALL the agencies base this req on the WRSTC standard? I prefer to have my students to the Fin swim as Im looking for ability to fin, not to breaststroke.



http://www.wrstc.com/downloads.php

Please, the RSTC is a creature of and for the agencies themselves. It represtents nothing more and nothing less that the least common denominator between them. We've been through this several times in the last few weeks.

 

[O2BBubbleFree]

What you fail to grasp (arrogant as it is for me to point it out) is that the entire recreational diving world is an outgrowth of the Scientific Diving Community. We started it, we created it and like Dr. Frankenstien we lost control of it; and it has, in most of our opinions, run amuck. So I feel some resonsibility for trying to help put it right or at least for perserving the things that we know that have been forgotten because we used a brain from, "er ... Abbie Somebody."

What you (in your feigned arrogance) fail to grasp is that I couldn't care less.

Actually, I thought the first recreational cert agency was LA County, the first nationwide agency was YMCA, and the rest sprang from there. Of course, it's an open forum, and you're welcome to educate us on your perspective, but I really think that's a hijack suitable for a separate thread. Seriously. I think a cert agency tree / history thread would be very educational. Should I become a Y-certified instructor (as I plan to when my babies get a little older) I'd appreciate having that info.

I was trying to stay focused on the OP's question.

I know it's bad form to use an exception to define the rule, but allow me a little leeway for the purpose of illustration:

Let's assume a student who is, oh, I don't know, maybe a marathon runner, and, like myself, as you may remember from another thread, is negatively buoyant. So, loads of lower-body strength, minimal upper body strength, outstanding physical condition overall, but challenged by the 200 yard swim. Why should he have to take swim lessons in order to pass SparticalBrane's 1200-yard combined swim? Or even the 200 yard swim?

Yes, the marathoner is an exception, but I think the principle applies across the board.

I remain convinced, despite Walter's post, that extending the swim requirement meets any need that can't be better met by training that is applicable to SCUBA.

I say 'despite Walter's post,' because I am a big fan of the YMCA program. I was originally certified by PADI, but crossed over when I learned about YSCUBA, and have even PM'd Walter with questions regarding becoming a part-time Y instructor.

I know I said I wasn't going to commit any more time to this thread, but it just keeps sucking me in...

 

[MikeFerrara]

Has anyone mentioned that ALL the agencies base this req on the WRSTC standard? I prefer to have my students to the Fin swim as Im looking for ability to fin, not to breaststroke.



http://www.wrstc.com/downloads.php

People bring it up here all the time.

However, the agencies don't really base their courses on what the RSTC says. Some of the bigger agencies are the RSTC and simply write the standards that they would like to follow. So, the RSTC standards and resultant ansi standards are based on what the agencies want to do.

While having an RSTC defined minimum aids the agencies in staying on the same page with each other when it comes to things like giving credit for the courses of other agencies, as far as any sort of regulatory function it would be like the fox guarding the hen house.

The RSTC is NOT some sort of independant and impartial body deciding what dive training should be. It is some of the agencies getting together and deciding for themselves what dive training is going to be. Unfortunately people continually bring up RSTC standards and present them as evidence that an agency is doing something right because they meet those standards. I don't know if industry professionals are really that misinformed or if they are are just that dishonest.