PADI responded to their OW swim requirement...

[sweatfrog]

You are naive my friend. Look at Sport Diver magazine the official agazine of the PADI diving society. Nothing but paid equipment reviews and dive travel.

If you look at the magazine, it's published in Florida and has a seperate editorial staff from PADI. It's just another magazine trying to take market shares where Skin Diver left off.

If you really want to complain about something, try the PADI Diving Society. PADI promotes it as if you're going to become a member of PADI. You don't get that until you're a Divemaster. I've had people ask if they are still certified, because their membership ran out.

Certifications are good for life, to my chagrin. Some sort of diving should be proven every year, to maintain your card.

PADI is a franchise like McDonalds they need to certify shops to make certs and for the shop to survive it needs to sell equipment. The two goes hand in hand.

That's completely false and shows a complete lack of knowledge about PADI. You must be trolling.

I have certs from 3 agencies: PADI, NAUI, TDI. PADI OW from a dive shop, NAUI AOW and Rescue from a university, and TDI nitrox from and independent instructor. What agencies require their instructors to be certify through a dive shop?

SSI, SDI, PDIC and others, but not PADI and NAUI. You are showing your ignorance once again.

Also if PADI decided tomorrow to require all teaching through a dive shop then the independent instructors would just cross-over to another agency so PADI would loose their certs.

Diving is a business and if the Instructor doesn't make money, s/he won't continue to teach. Most Independent Instructors fall by the wayside after they have trained their friends and family.

 

[O2BBubbleFree]

Something tells me that the people who sign up for his course have an idea that it won't just be your average course.

Absolutely. And I agree with what he's doing for the folks who sign up for his course. No argument there. I also agree that there is probably a market for the classes you are doing, even outside of the University.

Let me try to refocus a little. This thread is about minimum swimming requirements for a typical OW cert.

I'll be the first to argue that standards across the board need to be raised (or at the very least met). All I've been trying to argue here is that I see little use in extending the surface swim requirement. Even as a confidence builder, as I think that can be accomplished with drills and practice that are scuba-related (mask retrieval and clearing, swimming w/ mask but no snorkel, swimming w/ snorkel and no mask, light freediving, even CESA practice, but I know a lot of people disagree with me on this one.)

Let's face it, any traditional swim stroke is impossible with scuba gear on, and even if a diver were to shed his scuba unit his exposure protection will extremely hamper arm movement. And, obviously, the last thing a stranded diver should do is shed his exposure protection in an effort to swim farther.

Besides, traditional swimming is (almost) all upper body, while fining is all lower body. Why require students to develop muscles and techniques that are not useful in SCUBA?

Personally, I'd be all for dropping the OP's 200 yard swim and 'encouraging' my students to take the 300 yard swim-with-fins option, as this IS applicable to SCUBA.

 

[O2BBubbleFree]

Your wrong. At Penn State .

I would have been wrong if I had been talking about Penn State

I was replying to SparticalBrane, who mentioned that the 1200 yard combined swimming requirement was a requirement of his university, not of the certification agency. Since he cannot give the reasoning behind it, I can only conclude that it is a Phys Ed requirement.

 

[Walter]

Do they encourage making it mandatory? Back when I came up throught he Y program, the instructor had us do skills above and beyond the base, but said he couldn't withhold certification based on not being able to meet the higer tests, as long as the base skills were met.

Yes, they do. Your instructor was mistaken.

Your answer seems to be just that of a confidence builder, and I’m of the opinion that there are other methods to build confidence that are more suitable for diving.

Don't underestimate the value of confidence. Swimming is essentiual to confidence in the water. It is not the end all, be all, but it is the foundation upon which the rest is built. Confidence is a diver's first line of defense against panic. Panic is the single most dangerous aspect of diving. Divers who panic can easily die. Having confidence in you abilities is the most important aspect in panic prevention.

Actually I think you’ll find me one of the most nurturing instructors out there. Yes I’m proud of my students and what they accomplish, especially since this is often the first significant physical challenge that many of them have undertaken, remember, in large part these are folks who in grade school resigned themselves to the trappings and culture of being nerds and geeks, they were rarely jocks. Yes I’m frustrated by the posturing and BS that is put out that says folks can’t do this and that’s impossible. I know better. And it’s not that I’m some miracle worker with a magic cure. I’m just a guy who learned a set of techniques and an approach to teaching diving by sitting at the flippers of the past masters. I am, perhaps, one of the few to have tried to carry this to the public, a public that finds it difficult to believe and thus miscatalogs it as some kind of special warfare ninja diver crap, which its not, although it has been pushed back by the marketing experts to only remain in a few pockets in higher education and the LA County Advanced Program.

This is no surprise to me. Classes with the highest standards are usually the easiest to complete and in which to excell. The minute you mention raising standards, folks start yelling "seal training." They've obviously never seen an instructor who actually knows how to teach. The weakest students actually to better in the classes with the highest standards. I was not really ready to learn to dive when I took my OW class. Because my instructors knew how to teach and because they had high standards, I was able to successfully complete the class.

We shouldn't forget that all the popular agencies, all have nearly identical requirement for their OW.

Sorry, but that's simply not true.

I'm confused... Is diving supposed to be a macho thing, or a fun thing?

Howard, read the part of Thalassamania's post that I quoted.

 

[HowardE]

Howard, read the part of Thalassamania's post that I quoted.

Thanks...

I shouldn't have spouted off, but I think that all too often, people on SB lose track of what the "average recreational diver" is.

If you are reading this post... chances are you're NOT an average recreational diver. I seriously doubt that the average "average recreational diver" is on ScubaBoard.

 

[O2BBubbleFree]

Your answer seems to be just that of a confidence builder, and I’m of the opinion that there are other methods to build confidence that are more suitable for diving.

Don't underestimate the value of confidence. Swimming is essentiual to confidence in the water. It is not the end all, be all, but it is the foundation upon which the rest is built. Confidence is a diver's first line of defense against panic. Panic is the single most dangerous aspect of diving. Divers who panic can easily die. Having confidence in you abilities is the most important aspect in panic prevention.

I absolutely agree with what you say about panic and confidence. And I'm all about increasing confidence to ward off panic:

I'll be the first to argue that standards across the board need to be raised (or at the very least met). All I've been trying to argue here is that I see little use in extending the surface swim requirement. Even as a confidence builder, as I think that can be accomplished with drills and practice that are scuba-related (mask retrieval and clearing, swimming w/ mask but no snorkel, swimming w/ snorkel and no mask, light freediving, even CESA practice, but I know a lot of people disagree with me on this one.) ... Personally, I'd be all for dropping the OP's 200 yard swim and 'encouraging' my students to take the 300 yard swim-with-fins option, as this IS applicable to SCUBA.

However (back to the original question), I do not think increasing the swim requirement is the best way to do this.

Thal, SB, Walter, et al, I think I've expressed my view, and it's time to agree to disagree. I've already over-invested what time I could afford in this thread. Thanks.

 

[Thalassamania]

I would have been wrong if I had been talking about Penn State

I was replying to SparticalBrane, who mentioned that the 1200 yard combined swimming requirement was a requirement of his university, not of the certification agency. Since he cannot give the reasoning behind it, I can only conclude that it is a Phys Ed requirement.

There are other options that you know nothing about and never considered, if it is arrogant of me to point this out, I beg your indulgence.

At most universities there exists a federally mandated (CFR 1910 Subpart T App B, see note 1) board, the Diving Control Board (DCB) composed of the Diving Safety Officer and the senior divers at the institution. It is responsible for establishing standards and issuing certifications for individuals and programs that are under Subpart T (OSHA) and the auspices of the institution. It’s prevue does not include recreational or phys ed programs, which are exempt from 29 CFR Part 1910 (note 2). The DCB typically reports to the President or a Vice President. Perhaps these requirements were set up by the Penn State DCB?

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Note 1: Appendix B contains guidelines that will be used in conjunction with 1910.401(a)(2)(iv) to determine those scientific diving programs which are exempt from the requirements for commercial diving. The guidelines are as follows:

1. The Diving Control Board consists of a majority of active scientific divers and has autonomous and absolute authority over the scientific diving program's operations.
2. The purpose of the project using scientific diving is the advancement of science; therefore, information and data resulting from the project are non-proprietary.
3. The tasks of a scientific diver are those of an observer and data gatherer. Construction and trouble-shooting tasks traditionally associated with commercial diving are not included within scientific diving.
4. Scientific divers, based on the nature of their activities, must use scientific expertise in studying the underwater environment and, therefore, are scientists or scientists in training.

-------------------------------------
Note 2: OSHA issued this final rule to amend its Commercial Diving Operations (CDO) standards. This final rule allows employers of recreational diving instructors and diving guides to comply with an alternative set of requirements instead of the decompression-chamber requirements in the current CDO standards. The final rule applies only when these employees engage in recreational diving instruction and diving-guide duties; use an open-circuit, a semi-closed-circuit, or a closed-circuit self-contained underwater-breathing apparatus supplied with a breathing gas that has a high percentage of oxygen mixed with nitrogen; dive to a maximum depth of 130 feet of sea water; and remain within the no-decompression limits specified for the partial pressure of nitrogen in the breathing-gas mixture.

 

[fisherdvm]

I'm confused... Is diving supposed to be a macho thing, or a fun thing?

I agree, it shouldn't be a macho thing. At the same time, it should be a safe activity. Standards like what thallasamia quoted for his own ow class is excessive, and more leaning to "macho".

 

[Diver Dennis]

Thanks...

I shouldn't have spouted off, but I think that all too often, people on SB lose track of what the "average recreational diver" is.

If you are reading this post... chances are you're NOT an average recreational diver. I seriously doubt that the average "average recreational diver" is on ScubaBoard.

I agree howarde. Good point.

 

[Walter]

I agree, it shouldn't be a macho thing. At the same time, it should be a safe activity. Standards like what thallasamia quoted for his own ow class is excessive, and more leaning to "macho".

Sorry, but to me that indicates you are shooting from the hip and not investigating before you form an opinion. It's exactly the opposite of what you believe it to be.