PADI responded to their OW swim requirement...

[SparticleBrane]

Something tells me that the people who sign up for his course have an idea that it won't just be your average course.

 

[ams511]

I think that it's important to point out that you are in a university program. Don’t get me wrong, I think university programs are great, but being a part of the universities Phys Ed department means that the program must have high phys ed requirements.

Your wrong. At Penn State students could either get certified through a gym class or through the dive club and apply for credit. Some prefered the gym class because the checkout dives were in the keys as opposed to the dive clubs quarry checkouts No students were in significantly better shape than me and I am in my early 40's and a smoker.

Most universities only require 3 credits of phys-ed and things like bowling, fly fishing, golf and horseback riding count. None of these sports are really going to build aerobic capacity. I am sure every once and while they get a trained athlete wanting to dive but that is more of an exception than the rule.

 

[ams511]

PADI is going where the money is. Middle-aged people with money to spend on diving and equipment. These people tend not to be in peak fitness. The starving college student market is not their primary goal (most uni programs are NAUI) because they do not have the money to spend on lessons and equipment. I know PADI does not sell equipment but lets face it, PAID is allied with the equipment manufacturers. More people diving = more money for all involved, that is why you see the bar being lowered.

 

[friscuba]

PADI is going where the money is. Middle-aged people with money to spend on diving and equipment. These people tend not to be in peak fitness. The starving college student market is not their primary goal (most uni programs are NAUI) because they do not have the money to spend on lessons and equipment. I know PADI does not sell equipment but lets face it, PAID is allied with the equipment manufacturers. More people diving = more money for all involved, that is why you see the bar being lowered.

PADI makes NOTHING off gear sales. They aren't targeting age or income markets, as much as straight numbers. I'm wondering on your claim about the university programs, I assume uni means university, I suspect PADI is well represented.

PADI isn't the only one who's in it for money, they all make a few bucks (and not a heck of a lot more) off every certification. The day PADI shuts off independant instructors and requires all instruction to be through member stores (as some other agencies have already done) is the day they you might be able to legitimately align them with the equipment manufactures.

 

[ams511]

You are naive my friend. Look at Sport Diver magazine the official magazine of the PADI diving society. Nothing but paid equipment reviews and dive travel. PADI is a franchise like McDonalds they need to certify shops to make certs and for the shop to survive it needs to sell equipment. The two goes hand in hand. I have certs from 3 agencies: PADI, NAUI, TDI. PADI OW from a dive shop, NAUI AOW and Rescue from a university, and TDI nitrox from and independent instructor. What agencies require their instructors to be certify through a dive shop? Also if PADI decided tomorrow to require all teaching through a dive shop then the independent instructors would just cross-over to another agency so PADI would loose their certs.

 

[friscuba]

SSI and SDI (the OW branch of TDI) both require their instructors to instruct through facilities. I actually am an SDI dive charter facility, but they won't allow me to offer their online OW instruction program BECAUSE I'm not a retailer - I'm free to teach classes to anyone I recruit, but their primary focus is the retailer. SSI approches stores and potential stores to go to their program, with the claim that their program will help move product, I've had that conversation with thier representatives personally.

I know the Universities back in the area I came from (Oregon State University and University of Oregon) both ran PADI programs as I know people who've run both programs. I can not claim to know NAUI's standards as I'm not an instructor with them, and I do not know if they do or don't dominate the University dive program scene.

Sport Diver is probably profitable for PADI, but it's essentially a side business and manufactures and providers of services are what funds magazines, not subscriptions.

Smart dive agencies are going to woo customers in any way they can, PADI is not alone in that.

later,

 

[MikeFerrara]

You are naive my friend. Look at Sport Diver magazine the official magazine of the PADI diving society. Nothing but paid equipment reviews and dive travel. PADI is a franchise like McDonalds they need to certify shops to make certs and for the shop to survive it needs to sell equipment. The two goes hand in hand. I have certs from 3 agencies: PADI, NAUI, TDI. PADI OW from a dive shop, NAUI AOW and Rescue from a university, and TDI nitrox from and independent instructor. What agencies require their instructors to be certify through a dive shop? Also if PADI decided tomorrow to require all teaching through a dive shop then the independent instructors would just cross-over to another agency so PADI would loose their certs.

Yes. PADI's 1st tier customer is the instructor and the dive shop or resort. Those agency members pay membership dues, buy student materials and they are the ones who buy the certification (pic).

Rarely does a student care what agency is going to issue their card. A shop or instructor can sell one agencies card as easy as the next. The shops and instructors are the ones that PADI needs to sell to. On what basis is the shop or instructor going to choose an agency?

With that said, PADI advertising absolutely does target specific markets. For years their advertising was centered on making diving sound easy and safe. That got all the old couch potatos who are holding all the money interested. they even made the swim test easier for them.

More recently they noticed they weren't getting as many of the younger "adventurers", they had just made it sound to dull and it was turning into an old ladies sport. So...they revamped a lot of their materials to try to add a little more zip to them.

A few years ago, they also targeted the child market in a HUGE way with the introduction of the bubble maker and scuba ranger (or whatever it's called) programs.

 

[Thalassamania]

Oh. Sorry 'bout that. I got this thread confused with a previous one where you were using the task loading that your scientists might experience to justify your training standards.

With all due respect, and I mean that sincerely, you’ve hung up on a piece of educational jargon, “task load” that is used with different intents. I use it to help people to discover their real potential and not be limited by the paucity that the agency pundits would have you believe them capable of, not in a militaristic or macho form at all. I am just following in the footsteps of folks who’ve been doing this, in much the same way, with I hope the same success they had for over half a century.

I guess that was my bad. I define 'professional' divers as those that use diving to accomplish a task, where recreational divers are those that use diving as an end in itself. And, of course, by definition, if they are paid to go underwater, they're professional divers.

Underwater Scientists are not professional divers, as defined by the Federal Government. What they do underwater is a tiny fraction of their time.

And you seem to be an arrogant *****, which I'm sure you're not in person, so I guess we should both know better than to judge solely on informal written communication.

Actually I think you’ll find me one of the most nurturing instructors out there. Yes I’m proud of my students and what they accomplish, especially since this is often the first significant physical challenge that many of them have undertaken, remember, in large part these are folks who in grade school resigned themselves to the trappings and culture of being nerds and geeks, they were rarely jocks. Yes I’m frustrated by the posturing and BS that is put out that says folks can’t do this and that’s impossible. I know better. And it’s not that I’m some miracle worker with a magic cure. I’m just a guy who learned a set of techniques and an approach to teaching diving by sitting at the flippers of the past masters. I am, perhaps, one of the few to have tried to carry this to the public, a public that finds it difficult to believe and thus miscatalogs it as some kind of special warfare ninja diver crap, which its not, although it has been pushed back by the marketing experts to only remain in a few pockets in higher education and the LA County Advanced Program.

No, actually, you could answer my earlier questions as to what purpose a long surface swim test accomplishes. Your answer seems to be just that of a confidence builder, and I’m of the opinion that there are other methods to build confidence that are more suitable for diving.

Please reread my post, confidence building is a small part of what we’re doing there. If all you’re talking about is confidence building, sure there are lots of techniques, and I try and use them all. But whenever I can kill two birds with one stone (figuratively) I try and do so.

If a high level of physical stamina is required for the kind of diving a diver wishes to undertake, then they should certainly meet that need. However, that should be considered advanced diving, and is not necessary for OW classes.

Again, with all due respect, I hardly think of 450 yds, swum with a gentle elementary back-stroke or side-stroke as requiring a high level of physical stamina, if you do ... then we'll just have to agree to disagree, but I'd suggest, without any arrogance intended, only concern for your welfare, that you carefully examine the physical exertion level that diving may require and perhaps join us in a daily exercise program.

So back in the third grade, what if along with the multiplication tables and basic spelling, the teacher decided to throw in a little algebra or geometry and research paper writing and make it required to move on to the fourth grade?

The swimming skills listed earlier were quite similar to the DM requirements of several agencies. OW certification as little more than grades one through three or four in terms of a typical education.

Interesting. My son is in fifth grade; in fourth grade he did do a little algebra, some geometry and a research paper. I guess he’s a year slow.


Funny you should notice the similarity to leadership requirements, that not accidental. My requirements come, almost unchanged, from the first public scuba courses run in La Jolla in the early 1950s. Remember that up until the 1970s there were two certifications, Diver and Instructor. The diver requirements were applied to the instructor courses on the assumption that a would-be instructor should be as good a swimmer as the divers he or she was going to train. What you’ve seen in a diminution of swimming requirements at all levels not a misapplication of leadership level swimming to entry level programs, I’ve just held constant.

 

[fisherdvm]

From the business end, PADI, and the others, SSI, etc. are very smart. More diver certified, more gears sold, more trips booked, more paying students for classes.

We shouldn't forget that all the popular agencies, all have nearly identical requirement for their OW. This is ignoring the later requirement for DM, AOW, etc. Don't forget that SSI also have the 300 yard snorkel substitute as PADI.

I think as a diving professional (instructor), you will need to make money. Money is in the diving shop. Diving shops need to have traffic flow.

To be honest with you, look at western Michigan. We have only 1 legitimate dive shop that is fully NAUI, and that is way up in the thumb area. Whereas, there are around 10 within a 10 mile radius of my house which are either PADI or SSI.

Why - LDS need PADI and SSI - with lower standards, they can actually make a living.

If they go NAUI - and set higher standard - less people will sign up. If they go NAUI and hold the same standard as Thallasamia, it is like - almost no one will sign up.

Naui and LA methods are ideal, but they are like the dinosaurs - will disappear in light of real life business concern.

I thin little can be done to reverse that trend.... And the old geezers will be a dying breed (literally and figuratively).

 

[HowardE]

I'm confused... Is diving supposed to be a macho thing, or a fun thing?