PADI responded to their OW swim requirement...

[friscuba]

I am very careful to meet or exceed the standards of any and all agencies I certify through. But trust me, that's not very hard.

The question is though, according to the agencies you instruct for, can you REQUIRE standards exceeding those of the agency?

I can understand attempting to exceed standards just as a good measure, but to "require" it is the very reason at least a few agencies no longer allow it. You had instructors setting up standards that only a few could make, and then keeping the money and refusing to certify student who actually successfully completed agency standards.

 

[Thalassamania]

The question is though, according to the agencies you instruct for, can you REQUIRE standards exceeding those of the agency?

Yes.

I can understand attempting to exceed standards just as a good measure, but to "require" it is the very reason at least a few agencies no longer allow it. You had instructors setting up standards that only a few could make, and then keeping the money and refusing to certify student who actually successfully completed agency standards.

That's truly disgusting. Thinking back, there's only been one entry-level student that I refused to certify and that was when I found out that he got drunk and went solo night diving. We did get him into alcohol treatment and he re-did the course about a year later.

 

[SparticleBrane]

Personally I believe that having high standards means that people will strive to meet and exceed them.
It's a rare person who doesn't respond positively to someone saying "This is the bar"--most people will do their darnedest to meet it.

 

[O2BBubbleFree]

?? What's that supposed to mean? Hopefully nothing bad.

Alas, in cyberspace we don't have a way to check someone's credentials, so are left with weighing their advice based on their argument compared to our personal experience/training/common sense. The fact that you are training to be a NAUI-certified assistant instructor, and don’t know the NAUI OW standard, is one criterion I used. Sorry if that is 'bad.'

I think that it's important to point out that you are in a university program. Don’t get me wrong, I think university programs are great, but being a part of the universities Phys Ed department means that the program must have high phys ed requirements.

So, the two proponents of extreme swimming tests are you, coming from a Phys Ed background, and Thalassamania, coming from a Scientific Diving program that is in the realm of professional, not recreational, diving.

I’m a proponent of good OW training, especially focused on producing confident, skilled divers, but I think these extreme swimming requirements serve no purpose but to eliminate ‘weak’ divers, and in a straight rec. course would be elitist.

Those are just my impressions, but I was born in Missouri, the ‘Show Me’ State, and you’re welcome to prove me wrong.

 

[freediver]

The question is though, according to the agencies you instruct for, can you REQUIRE standards exceeding those of the agency?

That's a good question. So essentially you could have a group of students that fail based on swim requirements with instructor A but the same group with the same abilities could pass with instructor B of same agency using minimum standards.

 

[drbill]

Swimming, floating and snorkeling are three different things.

Now, now, Walter... don't you think you're getting a bit too technical here? Just teasing ya. You know how I feel about a swimming requirement... one that shows proficiency, not a near death experience at the end!

 

[drbill]

Personally I believe that having high standards means that people will strive to meet and exceed them.
It's a rare person who doesn't respond positively to someone saying "This is the bar"--most people will do their darnedest to meet it.

I used that philosophy when I was teaching high school decades ago. While I may have set the bar too high, almost all my students respected the fact that I didn't cut corners and expected real results from them.

However, I wish someone would explain that to some of the younger members of the work force I've encountered. Some of them think the bar is set too high when it's resting on the ground. I'd agree if we were doing limbo dancing.

 

[tedj01]

I used that philosophy when I was teaching high school decades ago. While I may have set the bar too high, almost all my students respected the fact that I didn't cut corners and expected real results from them.

However, I wish someone would explain that to some of the younger members of the work force I've encountered. Some of them think the bar is set too high when it's resting on the ground. I'd agree if we were doing limbo dancing.

The bar may be too high if it set on the ground, I'd say it may depend on how deep the hole in the ground is.

 

[SparticleBrane]

So, the two proponents of extreme swimming tests are you, coming from a Phys Ed background, and Thalassamania, coming from a Scientific Diving program that is in the realm of professional, not recreational, diving.

I'm not sure that the 1200-yard circuit swim that I described should be considered "extreme". It's a 400 swim, 400 kick (with mask/fins/snorkel), and 400 kick on scuba.

 

[Thalassamania]

So, the two proponents of extreme swimming tests are you, coming from a Phys Ed background, and Thalassamania, coming from a Scientific Diving program that is in the realm of professional, not recreational, diving.

I find that so funny. Yes I often teach egg-heads and nerds to dive. I don’t teach Dirk Pitt or any of his cronies. They’re often lab bound students, faculty and staff who find that they have a need to go underwater. Do you really think that these folks are “professional divers?” Hardly. But they are good at using their brains and what I do is teach them how to use their brains to overcome what seem to be significant physical challenges. Not by brute force or big muscles, but by using “ze little grey cells.” My swim tests aren’t that extreme, everyone knows about them, some even practice for them and a very few take a swimming class.

I’m a proponent of good OW training, especially focused on producing confident, skilled divers, but I think these extreme swimming requirements serve no purpose but to eliminate ‘weak’ divers, and in a straight rec. course would be elitist.

My swimming requirements do not eliminate ‘weak’ divers, they identify individuals that are not yet ready to learn. One year we had a South East Asian student who wanted to learn to dive. He tried the swim test and couldn’t make a single lap. But he really tried hard. I took him to some swim teachers, got him signed up, he worked like hell and by the next year was able, side-stroke to make it. And he took the dive class, and did well and he went home, breezed through a PADI IDC/IDE and now owns one of the largest dive operations in his country. Getting people to the “teachable moment” is what it is all about. Once you do that, the actual teaching is easy.

Please do not be insulted, I do not know you and I’m just going by my impressions from your posts. You seem to lack some self confidence; this is a common problem that we face in the training arena. If someone does not really believe that they can do something, it will be very hard to teach them to do it. For us, the breath hold exercises are the critical item.

We stand up in class and say, “How many of you can hold your breath for 15 seconds?” Most of the class raise their hands. “How about 20 second?” a few go down, “30 seconds, 45 seconds, a minute, a minute and a half, two minutes,” By this point there are no hands up, except maybe the big well muscled guy in the back. Then we tell them, “We’re going to the pool now, each and every one of you will, by the end of the pool session tonight be able, with no discomfort, to hold your breath for at least a minute.” In point of fact, everyone is able to do a minute, most can do a minute and half, and some can do two. At the end of the pool session we do the hand raising thing again and we tell that that by the end of the course everyone will do two minutes. Then we generally end by saying something like, “Next week we’ll work on walking on water,” and everyone giggles (even the big well muscled guy in the back). But what has just happened? Confidence building. They run through breathing exercises at the start of every pool session, and then they move to skills. How hard is it to learn to clear your mask when you can hold your breath for a minute or more? When you really know that you can do it? When you just did it a few minutes ago? So we work very hard to build confidence in the water and then add skills that are each broken down into small successful steps and that continue to build confidence. It’s like Frank Herbert wrote in Dune, “Fear is the mind killer, the little death.”

Those are just my impressions, but I was born in Missouri, the ‘Show Me’ State, and you’re welcome to prove me wrong.

The only way that I can prove you wrong is to work with you or put you in touch with someone who’s been through the program to witness to the fact that it really does work. It’s all about building confidence and skill, confidence and skill, one atop the other until you have a complete and prepared diver. It’s not about washing anyone out.