Question PADI Rescue Diver Chest compressions

[BoundForElsewhere]

This is mind boggling.

As was quoted earlier, the actual course teaches that you cannot do chest compressions in the water. The rescue scenario that instructors are required to teach and on which they are all tested for certification does not include in-water chest compressions.

First aid courses today teach that if the victim is not breathing, then the blood is also not circulating, which is the reason chest compressions are so important. There is an exception for drowning, though--it is possible that in a drowning, the blood is still circulating. That's the hope, along with the possibility that the victim will vomit water and begin breathing quickly.

There is no doubt that the climax of the rescue course, the surfacing (etc.) of a non-breathing diver, is a serious situation. For more than 15 years on ScubaBoard, I have challenged anyone to provide a true example of a case in which an unbreathing diver has been brought to the surface and later revived after having gone through the entire rescue sequence of the rescuer removing the victim's gear and his/her own gear while simultaneously providing rescue breaths and towing the victim to safety. I have never had anyone provide an example. I have had people give examples of people who were revived after being brought quickly to the boat or shore and given CPR there, so that would be my own personal inclination.

its a similar scenario to an ooa drill. i have been in a couple of out of air situations and no one has ever gone up to me or their buddy slicing at their throat. they grab the reg out of your mouth and you use your safe second.

 

[tursiops]

Some PADI instructors are actually teaching the Rescue Diver Course like people's lives actually depend on it.

You guys and gals are the REAL HEROES.

I've only seen a few of them in the wild though. Most of them aren't given enough time (or money) to teach anything properly.

I have seem far more excellent PADI instructors -- adhering to srandards, really working with students to address their needs, and delivering a product worth far more than what is paid -- than I have crappy PADI instructors. Perhaps you are travelling in the wrong circles.

 

[BoundForElsewhere]

What percentage of the world's instructors have you experienced?

a very tiny portion.

 

[tursiops]

This came from "SCUBA Diving", June 2024. (FWIW the magazine is a PADI publication)

The excerpt:
"The PADI Rescue Diver course teaches that when you discover an unconscious diver in the water, you should protect his or her airway. Get the diver's face out of the water and shield it from waves or splash. Get the diver positively buoyant. Then you have a decision to make. The diver will need for you to breathe for them and deliver chest compressions as well to maintain circulation"

Can you say what page this is on? I cannot find it.

 

[boulderjohn]

its a similar scenario to an ooa drill. i have been in a couple of out of air situations and no one has ever gone up to me or their buddy slicing at their throat. they grab the reg out of your mouth and you use your safe second.

I have only been near one actual OOA situation. A diver in our group evidently did not check her air properly before beginning the dive and ran out early in the dive. She just went for her buddy's alternate. After that incident, I polled the dozen instructors in our shop, and all who had experienced actual OOA situations said the OOA diver went immediately to the alternate. I mentioned this in a thread on ScubaBoard, and someone cited a study that indicated that OOA divers are likely to go for the regulator they have been trained to go for--which is often the primary.

None of us as individuals has enough experience to say what is most likely to happen world-wide. It really could be anything. I told my students that if someone near them goes OOA, then they will decide what happens, and it will be up to you to react to what they do. Don't try to force a panicked OOA diver to do something they don't want to do. If they reach from your primary, open you mouth and take your alternate. If they reach for your alternate, let them take it without getting in their way. If they signal and look at you, hand then whichever regulator you want them to take.

That advice is for traditional setups. I use a long hose primary and a necklaced alternate myself, so there is almost no chance they will go for the alternate.

 

[justinthedeeps]

I have seem far more excellent PADI instructors -- adhering to srandards, really working with students to address their needs, and delivering a product worth far more than what is paid -- than I have crappy PADI instructors. Perhaps you are travelling in the wrong circles.

Amen!

I actually had one PADI instructor like that. They rightly declined to pass most of the students on an Advanced Course for example. They got thru it just fine, did the dives, sort of completed the skills etc, but they had fallen short of convincingly mastering all aspects of the course.

How often does that actually happen?

They were encouraged to come back and try the dives again on a standby basis, even without having to pay more. The instructor was literally offering to work more with them, possibly for no extra charge, crazy.

Person is now a course director or something. I hope PADI is paying them what they're actually worth.

 

[ChrisMBC]

This came from "SCUBA Diving", June 2024. (FWIW the magazine is a PADI publication)

The excerpt:
"The PADI Rescue Diver course teaches that when you discover an unconscious diver in the water, you should protect his or her airway. Get the diver's face out of the water and shield it from waves or splash. Get the diver positively buoyant. Then you have a decision to make. The diver will need for you to breathe for them and deliver chest compressions as well to maintain circulation"

Seems like the article isn't available online anywhere, but I'd like to read the paragraphs following this. That text doesn't actually say that you provide in-water chest compressions - it says that you have a "decision to make", and that the victim will need rescue breaths and chest compressions. The next sentence could easily be "If you are close to surface support/shore, prioritize getting the diver out of the water so that you can provide chest compressions".

 

[tursiops]

I hope PADI is paying them what they're actually worth.

Pay does not come from PADI. If you are working with a shop, it comes from the shop. If you are independent, it come directly from the students. PADI does no training and pays no instructors (at least, as instructors; they have employees who also happen to be instrictors but instrcting is not the source of thier pay).

 

[tursiops]

Seems like the article isn't available online anywhere, but I'd like to read the paragraphs following this.

Yes, which is why I was asking what page it was on.

That text doesn't actually say that you provide in-water chest compressions - it says that you have a "decision to make", and that the victim will need rescue breaths and chest compressions. The next sentence could easily be "If you are close to surface support/shore, prioritize getting the diver out of the water so that you can provide chest compressions".

Exactly!

 

[JohnN]

Seems like the article isn't available online anywhere, but I'd like to read the paragraphs following this. That text doesn't actually say that you provide in-water chest compressions - it says that you have a "decision to make", and that the victim will need rescue breaths and chest compressions. The next sentence could easily be "If you are close to surface support/shore, prioritize getting the diver out of the water so that you can provide chest compressions".

I think you have missed my point. Chest compressions in water are not effective. Period. End of Statement. Full stop. There is no decision to make about doing them as part of a rescue

FWIW, even out of water, the success rate is <20% under the best of circumstances and you risk doing more harm than good.

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/05/29/1177914622/a-natural-death-may-be-preferable-for-many-than-enduring-cpr