PADI Police in force

[AfterDark]

But here is the difference: - If he is "taking you on a dive" he is assuming some liability, and when the flotsam hits the fan, he could be seen as being negligent. Look at all the lawsuits where people are suing DM's because they were in the water at the same time and had something happen. .

In my case he just happens to be a PADI DM that owns a boat not a charter. He is taking me diving the same way a taxi takes someone to a ball game. It is a wholly private deal.

 

[ktomlinson]

I am a pretty new diver with NAUI certifications. I have had a couple of experiences already with the 60 ft limit. The first time was in Roatan where the DM asked if we (my wife and I) were Advanced OW. We told them no and they said that we should be limited to 60 ft. I told them that I had never heard of that limit before (I hadn't until this point) and that my OW instructor told me that I was certified to 130'. Just to be clear, my instructor didn't recommend that I go to 130' (and I haven't yet), he just said that when I was comfortable with it the certification was good down to 130'. Back to the story. The DM's all looked at each other with a now what look, and then we proceeded to dive a reef at 85'. The second time I heard a limit brought up (other than 130') was by a NAUI DM on my Advanced OW certification trip. He said that NAUI had a 60 or 80' limit (cant remember for sure) for OW divers. I asked if this was new and he said no it had been that way as long as he can remember. I went ahead and got my AOW card so that I dont have to worry about not being allowed to dive sites when I am on vacation. I can tell you that from my experience with my AOW class, this is all that I am getting out of it.

 

[goonsquad]

I know my Instructor told us that PADI recommends new OW divers not go past 60ft. He then told us that we should only go as deep as we feel comfortable whether that be 15 or 85ft, and that the cert for rec. divers is to 120ft, thats for AOW or OW.
How are you to get confidence and comfortable going deeper other than going deeper?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I am a pretty new diver with NAUI certifications. I have had a couple of experiences already with the 60 ft limit. The first time was in Roatan where the DM asked if we (my wife and I) were Advanced OW. We told them no and they said that we should be limited to 60 ft. I told them that I had never heard of that limit before (I hadn't until this point) and that my OW instructor told me that I was certified to 130'. Just to be clear, my instructor didn't recommend that I go to 130' (and I haven't yet), he just said that when I was comfortable with it the certification was good down to 130'. Back to the story. The DM's all looked at each other with a now what look, and then we proceeded to dive a reef at 85'. The second time I heard a limit brought up (other than 130') was by a NAUI DM on my Advanced OW certification trip. He said that NAUI had a 60 or 80' limit (cant remember for sure) for OW divers. I asked if this was new and he said no it had been that way as long as he can remember. I went ahead and got my AOW card so that I dont have to worry about not being allowed to dive sites when I am on vacation. I can tell you that from my experience with my AOW class, this is all that I am getting out of it.

If by all you mean the card then you are not getting a NAUI AOW like I have seen or heard of. The NAUI classes I've seen are similar to the AOW I offer. Although I do offer deep with stage bottle, gas switching practice, OOA's at 90-100 feet, and a bunch of other stuff leadin up to that. If your AOW was more like a tour of "advanced type dives" with no real new skill introductions then yeah you did not get much more than a piece of plastic.

 

[ijdod]

Interesting dilemma. There's a few angles to this.

I feel the dive operator should not have planned a dive that exceeded the certification lever of the divers, or should have limited the divers to the level required for the planned dives. That way, this problem would have been prevented, and everybody would know upfront what they were in for. Until/unless the operator actually knows all how their guests dive, that's all they have to go by.

That said, certification is not the end-all. I see no problem in taking a OW diver beyond the usual limit for that certification level, but I do feel it should be well planned, especially if this was the first time this diver went significanty deeper. I'm not sure a 'follow the guide, oh btw it's deep' dive is the proper place to do so.

Of course, that eventually ends up as the experience bit of 'don't dive beyond the limit of your training and/or experience'.

Of course, the usual common sense disclaimers apply to all of the above

 

[boulderjohn]

I
I feel the dive operator should not have planned a dive that exceeded the certification lever of the divers, or should have limited the divers to the level required for the planned dives. That way, this problem would have been prevented, and everybody would know upfront what they were in for. Until/unless the operator actually knows all how their guests dive, that's all they have to go by.

That said, certification is not the end-all. I see no problem in taking a OW diver beyond the usual limit for that certification level, but I do feel it should be well planned, especially if this was the first time this diver went significanty deeper. I'm not sure a 'follow the guide, oh btw it's deep' dive is the proper place to do so.

If you check my profile, you will see that I have dived in a number of places around the world. I can only think of a couple that did not routinely dive below the 60 foot level for he first dive of a 2 tank dive. In all those hundreds of dives in that situation, I have never heard of any diver doing what was done here.

If an OW diver were to insist on a 60 foot limit for a first dive in Cozumel after getting on the boat, he might get assassinated by the rest of the divers, for that eliminates every one of the fabulous first dives there and leaves only the shallow ones usually done as second dives. Yet, many thousands of OW divers dive in Cozumel every year.

In other words, the NORM is for boats to do what was attempted here. It is what I would expect in 95% of diving situations. If a diver is going to insist on diving within 60 foot limits, then the diver needs to make that known before they get on the boat so the operator can make appropriate plans before the boat leaves the shore. I know that if I went on a trip with the understanding that I would be diving at a certain location and we could not do the planned dive because of an incident like this, I would be one unhappy diver.

Perhaps operators should post a sign saying there is a chance that a site might be selected that is below 60 feet so that anyone who cannot live with that can make appropriate plans.

 

[ktomlinson]

Jim, from your previous postings i get the impression that you take training/certifying divers seriously. I can assure you that we practiced no skills on my aow dives, and the classroom was nothing more than a slideshow of the book. We did 3 drift dives on a reef that was impossible to get lost on (for navigation) one time my wife held the dive buoy and another time I held it... I was told this meant we "led" the dive and that was required for the cert. The deep dive was in 6-8 ft seas and was 115'. I did learn a lot from that dive... I learned what it is like to have co2 buildup due to exertion that leads to a feeling of unease... I learned that it is better to get separated from the group than try to keep up and exert yourself... Neither of these were learned due to being in the class, just from being on the dive. (I learned about co2 from SB after the fact). I can assure you that just because the agency is naui that doesn't mean that the instructor is a good one. (I am nitrox certified from naui too and that class was worse... The instructor couldn't explain some things and my wife and I actually defined a couple of words for him that were in the presentation...not to mention he skipped some slides). These experiences don't bother me that much, but it did teach me to be more selective when picking instructors for rescue and beyond.

 

[boulderjohn]

Jim, from your previous postings i get the impression that you take training/certifying divers seriously. I can assure you that we practiced no skills on my aow dives, and the classroom was nothing more than a slideshow of the book. We did 3 drift dives on a reef that was impossible to get lost on (for navigation) one time my wife held the dive buoy and another time I held it... I was told this meant we "led" the dive and that was required for the cert. The deep dive was in 6-8 ft seas and was 115'. I did learn a lot from that dive... I learned what it is like to have co2 buildup due to exertion that leads to a feeling of unease... I learned that it is better to get separated from the group than try to keep up and exert yourself... Neither of these were learned due to being in the class, just from being on the dive. (I learned about co2 from SB after the fact). I can assure you that just because the agency is naui that doesn't mean that the instructor is a good one. (I am nitrox certified from naui too and that class was worse... The instructor couldn't explain some things and my wife and I actually defined a couple of words for him that were in the presentation...not to mention he skipped some slides). These experiences don't bother me that much, but it did teach me to be more selective when picking instructors for rescue and beyond.

I am not familiar with NAUI standards, but I have to assume they were violated. You should contact NAUI and tell them what the course was like. That is the only way they will be able to do anything about it.

 

[RJP]

How are you to get confidence and comfortable going deeper other than going deeper?

Just "going deeper" does not make you confident and comfortable. I think most folks do better deeper once they have gotten their trim and buoyancy (and therefore SAC) dialed in a bit more at whatever depth the are currently diving. Being more confident and comfortable in the water in general is one of the keys to being confident and comfortable going deeper. Proper training, skills, and equipment also helps a lot.

That said, there's no magic depth at which you will automatically be comfortable depending on what card you have in your wallet. My logged dive #7 was my deep dive for AOW, and we did it at 100' with no problem. Of course it was done off Lanai HI, there was 100+ ft of vis and the water was 78F. I would think the same dive to 100' off NJ with 10ft of vis in 52F water might have had a different comfort level.

 

[Tigerman]

Hmm...

I've never been on a boat anywhere in the world where "assigning a buddy" was part of the service. Much less "assigning a buddy that meets your specific criteria." I think expecting the dive op to do so is unreasonable, and fraught with problems.

Sure, they might say you must have a buddy. They might say "Ray, this is Bob. Bob, meet Ray..." and if we decide to dive together that's great. They might ultimately say "If you don't have a buddy your can dive with the DM/guide." But I've never been on a boat where they promised me a buddy that I'd really enjoy diving with.

I never said anyone promised or should primise anyone a buddy they ENJOY diving with. I said they should, as a service provider, be able to provide you with a buddy that youre comfortable its SAFE diving with. If that means you have to follow the DM around, so be it..
I have however never had any problem finding either similarly certified/skilled or atleaste safe buddies to dive with despite mostly traveling alone. Ive had a couple of fairly newbie buddies as well, but never anyone that has stopped me from enjoying my day.

Ive had one dive "ruined" by being with a newbie, not so confident diver (we where actually 3 people in that particular case) thath in hindshight should have passed up that dive, but I dont blame anyone (except maybe peer pressure) for it and I took that experience for what it was worth - a good learning experience. The only one chewing his ass out afterwards was himself.
That dive WAS a wreck with a bottomn of 100ft, choppy surface, less than brilliant visibility and pretty serious currents and it resulted in the less experienced of the three of us to use a lot of air and heading towards a panic. We worked together as well as can be expected with one of the three being seriously stressed and got everyone on the boat in a safe and responsible fashion so in the end despite not seing much of the wreck it was a good dive.