Padi Fees

[Colliam7]

Why does an organisation that brands itself as a 'professional association' exist as a for profit organisation?

Why should a professional association NOT exist as a for profit organization? There is no mutual exclusivity between the concepts of 'professional' and 'profit'. In fact, in the US, a 'professional association' is a recognized corporate structure (for tax purposes). For example, many medical practices are organized as PAs, and those certainly do not exist as 'not for profit'.

 

[Schwob]

So, a C-card is necessary as proof to an operator that he may cater to you w/o getting himself into legal or other trouble in case something where "to happen".

So, if eligibility to dive must be checked by an operator in a no-internet scenario - what is supposed to work and what actually works in practice as proof of certification - and what does not work maybe in ascending order?
- "here's my cert. number ..."
- I brought a printout of a picture front & back of all my cards - have a look, I did not bring my phone.
- ditto, but on phone screen
- I brought a print out of my e-cert - I did not bring my phone.
- ditto, but screen shots of the initial free e-cert on my phone screen (no connection)
- ditto, but the actual paid for e-cert on my phone (if I had any)
- An actual plastic card I created by printing a digital picture of my cert-card (front and back) - or paid someone to do. (probably not distinguishable from the original item (especially when worn) and I think anyone can legally make copies of his/her property for their own personal use to protect the original from wear and tear)
- The actual plastic card as received from the agency.

Obviously, all of the above could easily be faked by replacing one person's pic and name etc. with another's, none are particularly counterfeit proof, but of course fewer people have access to a card printer than all the other stuff. There'd be no point in making counterfeit cards except for "non-internet-scenarios". The wondering point being here is: That being the case, why then isn't a just a picture of the card good enough to begin with?

Again, so, if you are "the operator" (or captain, or DM or instructor or shop owner, or...) and you need to check and there is no internet connection whatsoever, what works as proof for you and what does not?
Why?

 

[TMHeimer]

Profit of $40? Do you really think that the only cost is the plastic card?

Don't know. That's why I asked if anyone did. Reword: Anyone know what the total cost is for issuing a card and what is left over as profit for the agency?

 

[tursiops]

So, a C-card is necessary as proof to an operator that he may cater to you w/o getting himself into legal or other trouble in case something where "to happen".

So, if eligibility to dive must be checked by an operator in a no-internet scenario - what is supposed to work and what actually works in practice as proof of certification - and what does not work maybe in ascending order?
- "here's my cert. number ..."
- I brought a printout of a picture front & back of all my cards - have a look, I did not bring my phone.
- ditto, but on phone screen
- I brought a print out of my e-cert - I did not bring my phone.
- ditto, but screen shots of the initial free e-cert on my phone screen (no connection)
- ditto, but the actual paid for e-cert on my phone (if I had any)
- An actual plastic card I created by printing a digital picture of my cert-card (front and back) - or paid someone to do. (probably not distinguishable from the original item (especially when worn) and I think anyone can legally make copies of his/her property for their own personal use to protect the original from wear and tear)
- The actual plastic card as received from the agency.

Obviously, all of the above could easily be faked by replacing one person's pic and name etc. with another's, none are particularly counterfeit proof, but of course fewer people have access to a card printer than all the other stuff. There'd be no point in making counterfeit cards except for "non-internet-scenarios". The wondering point being here is: That being the case, why then isn't a just a picture of the card good enough to begin with?

Again, so, if you are "the operator" (or captain, or DM or instructor or shop owner, or...) and you need to check and there is no internet connection whatsoever, what works as proof for you and what does not?
Why?

There are a number of cards (e.g., older PADI cards) that do not have the certification level on the same side of the card that has the person's name, date, picture. So you would need a copy of both sides, and who is to say you have actually copied both sides of *your* card? So, for me, a printout of the e-card is more useful than a printout of the actual, original card. But the gold standard is the actual c-card. Anything less is risky, unless you are certified by a major agency and have internet access.

If you want to CYA and don't have your C-Card, you can bring a printout of the Dive Chek (for PADI, or equivalent for other agencies) for you; it shows all your cards, and is arguably preferable to just a picture of your card.

 

[tursiops]

Don't know. That's why I asked if anyone did. Reword: Anyone know what the total cost is for issuing a card and what is left over as profit for the agency?

I really don't care.

 

[Schwob]

So you would need a copy of both sides, and who is to say you have actually copied both sides of *your* card

Exactly. Sort of part of my point / wondering. All doable with a suitable card printer. The real check is in checking on the record with the "Agency".

 

[tursiops]

Exactly. Sort of part of my point / wondering. All doable with a suitable card printer. The real check is in checking on the record with the "Agency".

Card printers cost more than an OW course.

 

[Schwob]

Card printers cost more than an OW course.

Yes. Some people so have access to them... I think in general so we are on the same page

 

[Colliam7]

I am reasonably confident that the sum of the per unit allocation of the fixed costs and variable costs associated with producing a physical C-card will reflect a total cost per unit that is less than what PADI (or another agency) charges. So what? Doing such a transactional analysis is absolutely meaningless. All businesses – and PADI and other training agencies are businesses – have centers of cost and centers of revenue. And, those centers often do not directly align. Maintenance of an IT infrastructure is just one good example of a business cost center that often is not directly aligned with a revenue stream. Many successful businesses make no attempt to directly align all costs and charges because they recognize that doing so is almost an exercise in futility. Rather, they look for the easiest, least painful (to the customer) ways to generate revenue to offset those non-allocatable costs. Hospitals have done this for years, with their charges for medications (the $12 aspirin tablet). Manufacturers (equipment, appliances, automobiles, etc.) do it with replacement parts charges. There is nothing wrong with it. And, it is often a ‘charge what the market will bear’ approach, because not infrequently the market for the original product only marginally bears the charge to cover the cost of production and distribution - the market for the original product is driven in part by competition. The aftermarket may not always be.

I have seen similar arguments in SB threads regarding the costs of airfills. And, some posters rant that they could go out and buy a compressor and do their own fills for much less than the awful, obscene $8 (or $10, or whatever) that their greedy LDS dares to charge for filling a cylinder . A few do. The majority don’t, because they quickly realize that the ‘cost’ of having their own compressor is more than the acquisition cost of the compressor, it also includes maintenance of the compressor (material AND time) and charges for essential ‘useful life-limited’ parts (e.g. filters), and it involves allocating space for housing the compressor, etc. So, many opt to pay for the ‘convenience’ of taking their cylinders to a shop for filling.

I opt to pay for the convenience of having a training agency maintain my certification records, just in case I need that record. That payment comes though fees I pay for course materials, and the original cost of certification, and other products. As for C-cards, I believe we are moving beyond the era of physical certification cards, and I am not willing to pay for replacing one – it is completely unnecessary (at least for me) and I have not lost one yet (color me silly, but I actually pay attention to where I put things, and file things, and I keep track of my logbook, etc.). I am certainly not willing to pay for an e-card. But, just as I am not willing to pay for those items, I am also not willing to gripe and whine about the fees an agency may charge others for them. If you really, really want that physical c-card, and you lose yours, you should be willing to pay for it. And, you will pay more than the simple variable costs associated with producing it. It is just business, nothing personal.

 

[tridacna]

Well said!