PADI a pain?!?

[Cacia]

I have been told not to tell "Discover" people about their inflater button. Did anybody hear that?

Is that the Instructor or PADI? I really have no idea.

 

[Divedoggie]

When we do Discover courses in our pool, we tell people about their inflator buttons!

 

[Scuba_Steve]

Several times statements have been posted along the line of "PADI doesn't allow anything to be added to the course".

Is this really true? Can anyone quote the standards as saying this?

I thought that PADI instructors were allowed to add just about anything they wanted to the course, but were prohibited from failing someone for arbitrary reasons, such as not being able to do 30 pushups while in full scuba gear.

Was my instructor violating standards when we covered many additional things during my OW class?

I have been told countless time by CD's up the hoop that this is what their aim is. They were quite specific on the matter actually. It was taught to me via my IDC. Others have mentioned this same thing was taught to them by other CD's so we are all left to believe that this is how it is, without a doubt.

Right now I don't have any written info at my finger tips.

I am 100% sure of what I heard and so are the others.

I also don't care what the reason is as far as failing a student. If I thought they didn't have their crap together to the point I liked, I invented a reason that would suit the requirements.

There's nothing arbitrary about failing to me, but I realize an agency needs an answer they can back up if required. It's never been an issue because I think the student once the situation has been explained, knows darn well they're not ready to move on just yet.

The point mentioned here a few times was also 'minimum standards' which means the dork teaching the basics should be complete enough, but it isn't.

 

[Scuba_Steve]

I have been wanting to mention this--but don't want to be seen bashing PADI, as I am PADI trained since NAUI.

But the other day, I was helping with a group of discover scuba clients---they were med students from Tripler. And the instructor started barking at me that "we don't tell them ANYTHING about the inflator" "IT IS DISCOVER Scuba". She says that we are supposed to adjust their bcds and lead them around...they aren't supposed to touch them.

???

This is correct. Let's face it, they're gonna touch it anyway

 

[MikeFerrara]

Several times statements have been posted along the line of "PADI doesn't allow anything to be added to the course".

Is this really true? Can anyone quote the standards as saying this?

I thought that PADI instructors were allowed to add just about anything they wanted to the course, but were prohibited from failing someone for arbitrary reasons, such as not being able to do 30 pushups while in full scuba gear.

Was my instructor violating standards when we covered many additional things during my OW class?

That depends...For example in an OW program an instructor can only introduce skills oulined for that module. He/she can however add information pertinant to local diving conditions.

The same is true for OW dives. Some skills can be performed on any dive and other are strictly associated with a specific dive.

From the PADI risk management section of the general standards and procedures.

Steps for reducing your legal risk
1, Follow an established, valid instructional system.
2, Don't deviate from standards or the instructional system....

Under ethical requirements...

1, Abide by the listed requirements and intent of all PADI standards and procedures as published in the PADI instructor manual, Training Bulletins and other updates while conducting PADI courses and programs.

In the OW standards under Performance based training we read

For this reason, students must satisfactorily demonstrate meeting knowledge development and water skills performance requirements in their required sequence.

In addition, there are discussions on the subject found in the instructor candidate work book and other support materials like the book "The Law and the Dive Pro".

Further, in the CF water standards and the OW standards sections or the open water course a specific list of skills with a specific sequence is listed. While there is some room for modifying methods or information based on local conditions, the instructor really isn't at liberty to "add skills". That principle is really the heart of the PADI instructional system which accoring to the introduction of the standards manual was developed by credentialed instructional system designers who use state of the art technology and learning theories to produce quality products...but can they dive? I want to see them dive and I want to see their students dive and I want them to watch and speak to how other instructors (who are teaching within standards) students dive.

So...they encourage practice time and there isn't anything preventing an instructor from combining skills that have already been introduced but an instructor is NOT supposed to add skills.

Whil an instructor MAY include practice time they are not required to as long as student meets the very LAX performance requirements. How lax? There are virtually NO performance requirements for the tour portion of any training dive. A student can literally crawl on the bottom like a lizard and pass per standards. This is true for just about all PADI programs from OW to instructor level courses. They never have to actually dive which makes it really easy to pass students after a very short class.

 

[TSandM]

This thread was pulled and heavily edited. The posts that remain are there because they are on topic and of substance. This topic is always inflammatory, but please keep any rancor directed at agencies, and not individuals.

 

[mislav]

When you've seen enough accidents that should never be happening on course, you'll see it differently.

When you see why the accidents are being caused by you'll see it differently.

When you realize that the agency knows full well what's going on and refuse to correct the actions, re-write standards and effectively discipline the instructors, you'll see where the fault lays here.

It's a world-wide systemic problem and it's is knowingly being ignored for profit's sake.

Is that only PADI or diving industry of today in general? Who made the dive industry change into what it is today? Now think of what I'm saying on the subject.

Plus, I added that "much of what people blaim PADI for is actually the fault of their instructors not covering the whole program as it is outlined by PADI".

That's an ADDITION to above view and in no way can it be taken as excluding the rest of my argument.

You keep disagreeing with everything I say and obviously have a better understanding of what I think than I do myself. Could you please tell me what my position on this subject is and tell me where you disagree with it?

You may as well believe that smoking doesn't cause cancer either, because the tobacco companies have been saying that for decades too,.......does anyone really believe that anymore?

I never said that. Here, learn something.

I have been told not to tell "Discover" people about their inflater button. Did anybody hear that?

Is that the Instructor or PADI? I really have no idea.

It's PADI. I've witnessed this behavior and mentality on several occasions, including twice on myself, back in the days of my first dives.

The reasoning is along the lines - the customers should relax and enjoy the sightseeing and not focus on their buoyancy.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I have been wanting to mention this--but don't want to be seen bashing PADI, as I am PADI trained since NAUI.

But the other day, I was helping with a group of discover scuba clients---they were med students from Tripler. And the instructor started barking at me that "we don't tell them ANYTHING about the inflator" "IT IS DISCOVER Scuba". She says that we are supposed to adjust their bcds and lead them around...they aren't supposed to touch them.

???

It is true.

The discover Scuba program is a shallow confined water program. You show them how to breath through and clear a reg. Tell them about equalization and then it's play time. It's not too bad since is shallow confined water.

The Discover Scuba Diving program is basically confined water mod 1 and open water dive one.

Skills can't be moved from one module to another and buoyancy control isn't introduced until module three...with the fin pivot.


These are the confined water skills
put equipment on.
Inflate the BC at the surface using the lp inflator
demonstrate proper compressed air breathing
Clear a reg using both exhalation and purge
recover a reg from behind the shoulder
clear a partially flooded mask
swim underwater
Read an SPG and indicate if supply is adequate or low based on its zone
Breath off of an alternate air source provided by an instructor for 30 seconds
recognize standard hand signals
demonstrate the techniques of a proper ascent.

Note here that we are going to do a proper ascent with no background in buoyancy control and we're going to swim underwater...without buoyancy control...and what about the descent? It's probably best that we leave that out because how can you do nay kind of a controled descent with no knowledge of buoyancy control?

This is the same skill list as CW mod 1 from the OW course. Note that we are doing ascents here without knowing anything about buoyancy control.

Now we are going to go do open water dive 1 without knowing anything about buoyancy control or even doing a descent. Max depth allowed on that dive is 40 ft.

OW students who have done this program can get credit for CW mod 1 and OW dive 1 from having done this program as long as the documentation is in place.

Note, that there aren't really any skills on OW dive 1 or on the discover scuba diving OW dive. It's just a tour...more like an underwater ride because they can't control their own buoyancy. They are the same. Prior to the idea of having students get credit for this program, there used to be skills on dive 1. The "Dive Today Philosophy" it's called.

What's the problem with this program? First off I have personally recieved reports of ear injuries from nearly everyone I ever met who participated in the program (that was a lot of people). I use the word injury here without being a doctor but I'm refering to anything from students telling me that they had water in their ears for days or weeks to students who actually saught out medical attention. Most were unaware that it was a "squeeze" they were talking about. I doubt the instructors condicting the programs see much of it because it's something that the participants deal with when they get home (these programs are often conducted at resorts).

From a teaching perspective, as an instructor (former instructor in my case), I don't want to give training credit for such a dive. I'm going to do at least 4 good long real dives with students with them diving. I don't do any OW dives with students until ALL CW work is done. I'm not going to control anyone's buoyancy unless they are in trouble and I don't want them in trouble. This whole thing is a marketing tool to sell diving. It works well for that but I will argue to the death with any agency or instructor who wants to argue for it's educational validity when it comes to taking up one of my 4 dives with a student and using it as a pure marketing tool. Students need experience diving...and that means controling their own buoyancy, functioning with their own buddy and so on.

Of course the recieving instructor can do as many dives with a student as he/she wishes but if the student is being given credit for a discover scub diving program, they don't want to pay for it again. Fortunately many students wait too long or don't have the documentation so you can usually skip giving them credit and pretend like it never happened and start them over and do a real OW dive 1.

BTW, doing OW dive 1 right after CW 1 is PADI's prefered method of conduct for conducting the course...the "Dive Today Philosophy".

 

[MikeFerrara]

Is that only PADI or diving industry of today in general? Who made the dive industry change into what it is today? Now think of what I'm saying on the subject.

It's the whole industry but PADI is the undisputed leader.

Plus, I added that "much of what people blaim PADI for is actually the fault of their instructors not covering the whole program as it is outlined by PADI".

I blieve that's completely false. I've witnessed many poor quality classes but I have witnessed very few actual standards violations. PADI will enforce their standards. Unfortunately the standards really don't require all that much.

the VAST majority of instructors adhere to standards the best they know how. The vast majority do a "good job" as it is defined by PADI and whoever the instructor may be employed by. They teach the way they were taught to teach. True, there are some instructors who are real masters at using the letter of the standards to teach the most cost effective class they can but that's just business and they don't have to violate standards to do it.

The "fault" or "blame" if there is any lies almost completely with the standards. By watching classes and reading the standards this is more than demonstrable.

 

[Mark_J]

Actually, we're not. I think their standards are just short of criminal.

You take every opportunity to let everyone hear your opinion about how evil PADI is as well. I'm sure the intelligent folks here at SB understand that you bear malice toward PADI and as such your opinions concerning them should be taken lightly.